Conversation finished
Date: 01-11-03
Note from the editors of exbaba.com:
Ex Baba has used his real name and full address (except in the first mail below) in the correspondence with mision sai, which follows next...
----- Original Message -----
From: mision sai
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:12 AM
Subject: Consider again your experiences!!!
My friends, Consider what swami said: "I will shake the tree" How do you think that he should shake the tree? I wonder, my friends, why you call your self's ex-devotees. How could you consider your self a devotee, a person who feels capable to explain the acts of God? Let me tell you my story... I was in Puttaparthi two years back. I got a few interviews. I saw swami's hand with an object. I started to doubt, of course, the mind's nature is to doubt. I didn't think about swami's intention. when the interview finished, I left happy of course, but with a very strong doubt. I started to pray for swami's help. After a few days a got another interview. In front of all the group, swami said looking to me with love: "This boys thinks that swami gets things from his chair, but let me tell you that swami is pure from feet to head. Sometimes swami has to do painful acts for the benefit of his devotes, as a doctor practice painful operations to his patients" In the private room, I told to swami about my doubt's, about what I saw. everything. He was listening to me very calm. He said: "Swami is trying to give you a lot of love, but your doubts are blocking it" "Be careful with your imagination" After that interview a was feeling better, but doubts still there. After a few days, I was ready to go back to my country, I was in my last darshan. I got first line. I was praying to swami asking him to take out my doubts. Then when he was in front of me he said: "Go, with your mother!" I was very happy. In the interview room, only few persons where there. One of them was the President or Home minister of India, I can't remember. Swami was equal with all. He didn't give any special attention to the great politician. He materialize a few things for my mother. He ask me to enter to the private room. I was nervous. As soon as he closed the door, he said: "I know everything about your doubts, anything. Don't be fool. Look very carefully" Then he show me his completely open hand with the palm toward my eyes. and guess what? an oil started to come from his skin!!! slowly, I was looking it for almost ten seconds until his whole hand was covered with oil !! He putted the oil in my abdomen for one of my problems, this is also a great story, but I reserve it. Then he said in a very soft tone, smiling: "Now you see, swami materialize" In that moment I saw GOD, not because his omnipresence and omnipotence, because of his LOVE. I understood that swami is testing the faith of is devotes, acting as if he is doing magic! or doing things that we can just explain as a sexual abuse!!! of course, swami is free to do everything for the welfare of is devotes. Sometimes is difficult to accept his acts. Sometimes are painful, We want to make God in our way! If a Doctor touch your genitals in a consult there is no problem, But if God, the supreme Doctor, touch them, is a sexual abuse!! Where is our trust???? I will follow swami until the end of time... Atte. a Swami Follower. 23 year old.
-------Original Message-------From: ex-baba@hetnet.nl
Date: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:38:17 PM
To: mision sai
Subject: Re: Consider again your experiences!!!
Hi, Swami follower
1) You don't sign with your name, location, so how can we believe any of it.
2) SB begins his molestations with practically all foreign young men with oiling. He may materialise the oil, but hundreds of yogis and swamis are on record as doing such things, e.g. Swami Premananda of Tiruvannamalai, who (apparently) materialised all the things SB does for decades and is now in prison for life for rape and murder.
3) The evidence of SB's faking materialisations is very considerable, and comes from many persons who have had dozens of interviews and held top office for many years, though not all have yet taken on the burden of going public. David Bailey has over 100 interviews! What he claims are 'diamonds' have recently been analysed by a top royal jeweller and proven to be synthetic stones worth very little. The full details of this will be published on exbaba.com later this month.
4) SB can and does say almost he wants to beguile people, whether it is true or false. He is very intuitive and is also able to confuse and confound people, especially those who are already confused and too weak in themselves.
Bye!
Ex Baba
(Address omitted)
-------Original Message-------
From: ex-baba@hetnet.nl
Date: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:04:02 AM
From: mision sai
Subject: Re: Consider again your experiences!!!
Hello Mision Sai, I will answer you this time, between the lines...
Thank you for your mail:
------ Original Message -----
From: mision sai
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Consider again your experiences!!!
Mr. Ex Baba
Some devotes have been granted with enormous divine experiences. Some of them have shared with us this experiences. Others have kept silence. Some great souls have recognize The Avatar with just looking is face. Other have doubted even after they have felt the divine love of SB. SB has demonstrated is omnipotence, his omniscience, and his omnipresence in all this years. The Avatar will not stop his mission. His word has become reality. "I will shake the tree". It seems that only a few will understand this transcendental words.
Is this so? I have reason to doubt your words.
Every Avatar has tested the faith of the people around him.
Do you thought that it was easy to develop Faith?
Swami is testing us with such supposed experiences: "false materializations", "sexual abuse", etc. Of course, He is selecting his people. Only he knows who are the indicated.
This is not so, his karma will be loaded with this heavy burden, he must make it alright in his next life, just like everyone else, who does wrong thins, one universal law says that what you are doing to another, you will get back the same...
Remember that very few believed in Jesus, very few believed in Rama, very few believed in Krishna, etc...
Shri Ramakrishna Paramahansa was considered to some narrow-minded people as Gay!
This is the game of God.
God is Love, and not Baba, God is no game, and he plays no games, above all when he knows that he is hurting people, he doesn't want man to suffer.
Some people have become blind to the Glory of Sai, Some people with weak determination could not continue in the path of the Avatar due to lack of trust!
Doubt is the Satan's prison.
Now you are too serious, come on, doubt can be useful, for example when you want to go over the street, and you don't know where the traffic is, and you doubt, and keep standing still, and suddenly a car is passing, doubt is good then.
Doubt makes you see everything bad, ugly, dangerous, even makes you hallucinate! then fear blinds you. In all the existing spiritual paths, doubt will be present. Don't forget.
I don't doubt that Baba molests people, this is already a proven fact for me, Hans de Kraker for instance... hmmm, I think your Swami is playing games yes, you are true, that is why he isn't God, because God doesn't play games, he wants to be everybody happy...
People who is vs. Swami can't see that swami has transformed millions of lives, internally, Devotes have become better human beings, and this is the purpose of the Avatar. He will not stop.
I don't deny, that many devotees have grown to better people, this is because the Baba has made a good influence on him, this must be true, I believe this rightaway, but still there remains the bad side of Baba, exbaba.com tells why...
Tell me, do you consider your self a sincere aspirant?, do you really want to obtain God's grace?, do you really want to be a better human being, controlling your senses and your mind?
Yes, I do, already do, and making the website exbaba.com I have grown very in my personal views, I am a better man now, I have many insights in myself since the beginning, I am a happier man, certainly... because I have helped many people not to believe in Sai Baba, but just believe in the real God, who is All...
Are you doing service?, Do you repeat God's name constantly?,
No please not, I have to do work, I don't want that, and God doesn't want that, he wants me to do my work, making the site, and be a good man to everybody I see each day.
Have you practiced what swami teach? Have you experienced the results? Instead of talking bad about SB, you should start practice for your own welfare. Your conduct will talk for you.
The reason a don't sign is because it's not the time to do it.
The things Baba says are ok, I mean, Love all Serve All is ok, why not? Everybody could have said that... but the things Baba practices are not ok, a real God doesn't want a human to suffer, at least, he won't straight do this to a human being, Baba did ... and does...
Finally,
Let us remember that Shri Aurobindo announced Krishna's descent in 1926, November 24!!!!!
Is he also a magician?
Let us stick to Baba
Jai Sai Ram!!!!!!
Bye !
Ex Baba
----- Original Message -----
From: mision sai
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: Consider again your experiences!!!
....Anyhow, Swami will call you again!!!
Don't forget...
Be happy,
---Conversation Finished---Jai Sai Ram
----- Original Message ----- From: Ex Baba Email: ex-baba@hetnet.nlTo: mision sai
Email: sathyasai@softhome.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 11:35 PM
Hi Mision Sai Worker,
I know our conversation has ended, but... on second thought... I will answer on just two points, but first I would advise you to examine in detail the seriously researched website of the Sai Baba author, Brian Steel, if you wish to be able to make up your own mind mainly on the basis of what SB himself says and claims etc. It is a massive research documentation at:
http://bdsteel.tripod.com/index.html
If you are interested in an insider's view who wrote a pro-SB book signed by him etc. etc., and study the massive factual documentation about SB's deceits after 20 years of intense involvement,
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma
You wrote:
Every Avatar has tested the faith of the people around him. Do you thought that it was easy to develop Faith?
Swami is testing us with such supposed experiences: "false materializations", "sexual abuse", etc. Of course, He is selecting his people. Only he knows who are the indicated.
To this, one can but reply: What is the point in a test of faith? Few devotees seem to understand what a 'test of faith' is all about, and fewer still ever really question the idea of its necessity very deeply. If it leads to the devotee doubting and falling away, they are said to have failed the test, and this can be due to 'spiritual immaturity'. There may be a case for this in some respects: some so-called tests of faith may be designed effectively to further development of a naive person, a weak mind or people whose self importance or egoism needs curbing.
However, when something one believes seems to be contradicted by facts, this causes investigation and not least reflection and self-inquiry as to what is real or not, what is good or bad... and such inquiry often leading to a greater understanding of oneself. Yet where this inquiry is thoroughly and honestly done, but leads only to consolidating one's doubts about the guru or the teaching, what then? If doubts engendered by set tests of faith prove justified and put a person in impossible dilemmas (such as that between knowledge and faith or head and heart), how can that have any beneficial spiritual effect? All sorts of contortions of argument can defend tests of faith, but if the article of faith is genuine, one asks, why should doubts need to be provoked at all? After all, it is hard enough getting any kind of constant faith even before all that!
On the other hand, obviously, calling something a 'test of faith' can sometimes become a means to cover up a mistake or worse on behalf of the guru and those connected with him or her. This is part of the social system, a very subtle means of manipulating the minds of guru-followers developed over centuries, by which the person is hooked into a labyrinth of uncertainties and strivings, which may bear no other fruits than keeping the guru in his fortunate, revered position.
The 'Wait, Wait' test: That SB does not respond to one's prayers, private questions to him or various others ways in which a person tries to contact him and obtain his assistance in some matter, is taken to mean that the time is not ripe. One of SB's most repeated 'instructions' is known to all who have visited him... "Wait, wait". And DO people wait! Hours and more hours on end, and mostly he just walks past unconcernedly! They also wait for the fulfillment of their prayers, projects, intense needs (like healings) and any kind of desire... Whether or not SB actually says the word 'Wait!' to them, or its equivalent, it is often enough for them just to HEAR him say it to someone else to take it to heart in their own case. What then happens?
If the exact prayer or need is not fulfilled, there are various alternatives: one's project alters, one's prayer changes, circumstances alter... so that the original request or need is no longer relevant. Or a person finds all kinds of possible reasons for SB saying what he did, anything so as not to lose the belief in SB's omniscient care. Even when the opposite of what one wanted happens, devotees reason that it was best for one after all, only SB knew! In many cases, people doubtless simply gradually forget what was asked for.
The blanket believer will tell us that SB always responds (another of SB's claim 'I always respond'). However, I have met countless people who have, over very long periods of time, waited and waited without his responding in any observable way. The half-mindless follower will say 'But SB works on levels you cannot see. He always does what is necessary!' One has almost to admire such people for their unquestioning determination willingly to deceive themselves with such vague and improbable hopes... but it was ever thus.
SB is said to be 'the master of maya', which means a master of deception and delusive appearances. Now, there is quite sufficient evidence that SB does employ sleight of hand when seeming to produce objects from this air. I also know two persons who have experienced him making mistakes in this, though I have not seen a clear instance of it myself. On the contrary, I have very clearly seen manifestation of laddu sweets in thin air underneath his hand, and have eaten some of the warm, sticky product! So why does he cheat? The study of mediumism and related phenomena shows us that many mediums assessed as genuine, later began to lose their powers and took to cheating due to the pressure to go on producing results. Madame Blavatsky is one such famous instance, and there are many more.
Anything SB does that causes doubts is said to be one of his inscrutable ways of testing us so as to teach us, ‘a test of faith’.So in what does the alleged ‘test’ consist? Is it to see whether one’s faith in SB and all he says and does is sound enough for one to continue to be a follower? Is it not also a way of finding out whether you are gullible enough to believe this, and so know how committed you are and hence how well you can be used for various tasks? SB could surely not manage to continue his deceptions if there were more than a very few percipient skeptics like V.K. Narasimhan around (even though he did not speak out his real doubts in public)!
If you are willing to swallow the first baits and get initially hooked, you may then be tested with yet more disturbing matters, to see whether you remain faithful to the guru - on and on, until you are entirely in his power, without a will of your own to assert in the slightest thing that goes against him. Then you are really useful, for spreading stories he chooses shall go out, for telling lies - that SB has also used people repeatedly for conveying his lies to others since his teenage days is fully described by one of his most servile of devotees, Smt. Vijayamma (in her autobiographical book 'Refuge there is none’).
Of course, many of the apparent tests of faith that arise are not designed as such at all by the guru, they are simply compromising facts that leaked out or could not be covered up! The ideology takes precautions in advance against all the unfortunate facts and the guru' s future blunders by insisting on total, unquestioning faith at all times, never 'seeing or hearing evil', thinking and saying only good things... and so on.
Some examples that 'test faith': When I visited Prashanthi Nilayam in 1992, I met devotees who had been present there about six weeks previously when a man had put his arms around SB’s legs during darshan. The result, SB fell full length on what was then the compound’s concrete ground. SB got up and continued his round, but the attendant male Seva Dals manhandled the foolish Indian man and bashed his head forcibly and repeatedly on the concrete. SB retraced his steps told them to desist, but not until well after the damage was done. Now was this a test by the omniscient SB, who allowed himself to be felled, and allowed the violent consequences?
The Times of India (14-11-1994) reported: "Satya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi vomited while distributing laddus to dignitaries including Home Minister S.B. Chavan and Andhra Pradesh Governor Krishnan Kant seated on the dais, at the Purnachandra auditorium at Prashanthi Nilayam here. The dignitaries were seen trying to lend a helping hand to the Sai Baba who was seen rushing behind the back a drop curtain on the dais. He returned after changing his robes. Thousands of devotees had gathered there as part of his 69th birthday on Wednesday. The SB resumed distribution of laddus."
What kind of a 'miracle' might this have been, one wonders? One of the unfortunate kind, perhaps? It tends to bear out the unconfirmable reports by Indian devotees that SB has been the object of a series of life-threatening attacks in recent years, including being sent deadly cobras in a basket.
The devotee will, of course, without any knowledge of the facts or other information immediately turn such incidents into proofs of SB's all-knowing omnipotence in that he survived. What we would not accept as a valid or relevant answer from other people, many devotees will immediately accept as profound when it comes from the one they believe to be omniscient. For example, when asked by a Jewish friend of mine why it was that Jehova (i.e. God, i.e. Sai SB) had not told the Jews about reincarnation, but asserted the contrary, SB did not understand the question and asked to hear it again. My friend then said that the question was about reincarnation. Without waiting to hear the actual question again, SB replied, in so many words, "Reincarnation. You cannot understand it. Do not try to think about it. It is like the seed and the fruit." I felt that this answer was no answer at all, but afterwards my friend claimed that it was a perfect answer! His view was that, because the question was one that his Jewish wife considered very important, SB was telling that they should rather concentrate on other more important things. This is not untypical of SB's way of answering questions. He frequently replies to questions very obliquely, or changes the subject unexpectedly, or brushes it aside and the person concerned often takes whatever comes as a significant teaching or even a spiritual directive. This does not build confidence in SB's supposed omniscience for some of us... for it may also suggest SB's inability to handle the question. This all depends, doubtless, on what you happen to believe or are determined to rationalise?
Finally, Let us remember that Shri Aurobindo announced Krishna's descent in 1926, November 24!!!!!
Is he also a magician?
It has been claimed as follows: "The mystic scholar Sri Aurobindo some distance away and knowing nothing of the Raju family, noted in his journal on November 24, 1926 an inner awareness that Krishna had again taken form on earth." An old indirect claim, but this official appropriation of credit and legitimisation for SB, (as slyly insinuated by BonGiovanni) has never been proved. Biographical accounts indicate that Sri Aurobindo's (and disciples') references were to a perceived culmination of Aurobindo's own spiritual concentration. Worse still for Giovanni and other perennial purveyors of doubtful old rumours, a faithful and well known SB devotee, Birgitte Rodriguez, who had previously been a resident of the Aurobindo ashram, states categorically in her 1993 book, Glimpses of the Divine (p. xxiii), that:
(i) the Mother stated that "Krishna on that day descended into the physical to join and help Sri Aurobindo in this work."
(ii) (referring to a diary entry by Aurobindo): "It should be quite clear from this quotation that what happened on November 24, 1926 related to Sri Aurobindo. Quite often Sai devotees take this statement by Sri Aurobindo to be a reference to Sathya Sai Baba who was born on the preceding day ... It is an incorrect interpretation."
2. A further potential source of embarrassment for the officially propagated myth is that, according to recent evidence in LIMF (2000), SB's official date of birth (1926) remains to be verified.