TO THE FACELESS, TRUTH-CHALLENGED STUDENTS AT 'SAIONLINE'

TO THE FACELESS, TRUTH-CHALLENGED

STUDENTS AT 'SAIONLINE'

Their reply to my comments as published here recently is answered here point by point:-

(I reply in red): You call me evil, yet you are so hypocritical (or confused?) as to call me 'dear'.

Your response shows a very immature and confused mind.

I am 66 years old with a life of broad experience behind me in many countries with various languages etc., and I have studied the human, natural and spiritual sciences as well as philosophy East and West very deeply and I have taught philosophy and social science for decades, mainly at the University of Oslo. My writings will demonstrate this to you. V.K. Narasimhan said he considered I had the most complete understanding of Sai Baba's spirituality - as well as the sciences - of anyone who wrote for him, which is why he asked me to contribute over 25 long articles to Sanathana Sarathi. Well, you won't like his opinion! You could also have found the review he sent to my publishers of my book 'Source of the Dream' on the Internet which was published without my knowing at Puttaparthi (and incidentally I get no profit at all!). So much for your assessment of my understanding then. An author and very accomplished person who commented to me on your original mail to exbaba.com, however, this it was, "Incoherent TRIPE!" Here you get two independent perspectives to consider, and more are to come below!

It is very obvious that you are more interested in arguments for your own emotional satisfaction than for the sake of actual understanding. A mind full of hatred cannot see anything in its right light. Five interviews do not give you much insight into the actual life and actions of Sai Baba. Your comments are based on limited views and fragmented understanding.

An ex-devotee Sai leader from Latin America has suggested that I should send the following message to you, which I do:

"...each one can live his/her own fantasy. If SB was only a good psychic preaching to love God and each other and using part of what he gets in charity work then fine, there are plenty of charlatans in the world. The fact that he is homosexual is also irrelevant compared with all the crimes that are ascribed to him like pederasty and assassination. If he is so pure why he does not allow for a public an in deep investigation? That would clear many things his tacit refusal strengthen the allegations against him. I think that you have wonderful experiences with SB, I also had them, and I can understand your position and really I feel a lot of sympathy towards you. However if SB was omniscient then he would be aware of this conversation and this interchange and therefore there should be a goal on this... SB says that it is not good to discuss devotional things, so I wonder why you spend so much energy with someone that you (without prior knowledge or personal contact) classify as with "a very immature and confused mind. It is very obvious that you are more interested in arguments for your own emotional satisfaction than for the sake of actual understanding", in any case if SB is as powerful as you think then let him protect the faith of his devotees... but remember at the end Truth will prevail so you do not have to worry at all unless you are not so sure about SB."

However, I can easily defend myself against your empty words too! Anyone can see how involved I was - also on subtle levels - with SB from the book I wrote (he authorised publication and he signed it, it is just too well known among thousands of devotees). So you do not know with what my mind is filled, that's for certain. Even what I understand I can despise... such as untruth, adharma, hypocrisy, stubborn ignorance... this is fully justified! I do not hate SB as such, but I can say many of his actions are hateful to me. 'Hate' is a very relative, imprecise word that covers many states of mind. I should think by your tone and baseless slander - which means smear assertions without any backup whatever - that you know quite a few of them well.

Now, the number of interviews - after having had a few - makes virtually no difference whatever, for nothing really changes... he reels off the same old rope most of the time, is vague, dissembles, charms and flatters (easily done!), is haughty, disdainful, makes fun of people... all very interesting no doubt! There are some 'tricks', cheap trinkets said by him to contain 'diamonds' (which they are not, I know 100% scientifically certain) plus some imprintings on well-prepared minds - perhaps some use of yogic or siddhi powers - etc. I lost interest in them, in fact! (For just one, David Bailey attended over 100 interviews and he came through much investigation to equally devastating conclusions as I have quite independently, so there! For others one single visit behind the doors of the private room is more than enough to know the truth about SB, as the recent case of Kim from Denmark, published some months ago on exbaba.com , clearly shows! Then there are so many others with years of attending interviews who have left too. Al Drucker is an interesting case... I am privately well-informed as to just why he left, but you don't know why? There have been various long-devoted foreign parents who were ever at interviews but who withdrew their sons suddenly from his college, just think of the Greek boy, Socrates, for one!). It is the same with darshans and sambarshans - much the same all over again - I have been at about 6 or 7 hundred, I reckon (far more than enough!)- plus nearly as many bhajans.

Besides, I have read every published word of SB at least twice over, and analysed and correlated them all until 2000, which is demonstrated by the index I published with over 18,000 detailed one-line entries... you would be surprised! I can see that you (whoever you may be) are rank amateurs as to what SB 'teaches' as a whole. But then, at the ashrams, the thoughtless parroting all devotee speakers achieve is the thing to aim for, isn't it? Not an original word is spoken by anyone, not even SB! It's all there bar nothing in scriptures or the writings of many other Indian teachers from whom he constantly 'borrows' (or steals) without acknowledgement. So he thinks he invented it all (and the cosmos!!)... well, you know, I don't think so! (Nor do about six billion other people).

Yes, it is emotionally satisfying to be able to see through it all so clearly at last!

As far as 'sexual molestations' go your 'victims' are no victims at all. They had their own victims whom you seem to have little pity for. Unlike yours, these are not from third hand information.

Your words are so imprecise and sweeping that you clearly don't even know what you are actually saying, or else you are lying blatantly against better knowledge. Are you implying that you have the carnal knowledge yourselves? That is laughable, or - if a fact - tragic.

I have heard the direct verbal testimony of three foreign victims of serious sexual abuse by SB, just for a start, and I am wholly convinced that all are totally innocent of sexual abuse of minors. You present not a shred of evidence for your unfounded, hence hateful, attack on so many victims, whereby you lead all to conclude that you are merely bluffing! The documentation of sexual molestation is from many young persons, very detailed, highly credible, and much of it there on the Internet for all the world to see, and it keeps increasing. Films with devastating victim interviews have been made public on national networks and will reach everyone sooner or later. But you, such 'heroes of truth', can present 'zero documentation'. There is also much evidence which remains unpublished, partly so as to protect the victims from such persons as you with your slander. The latest new report comes three days ago from a signer of the public petition website (http://www.PetitionOnline.com/saibaba/petition.html) monitored by the fully self-declared JuST group as follows:

"331. Bhanu Chopra India 1981-1988 Student at Prashanthi Nilayam. God does not take away innocence from young children. He does not fill their heart with fear and shame. My only advice to everyone is DO NOT BELIEVE in anybody who claims to be God or Son of God. Just believe yourself and trust yourself."

Of course you will probably try to deny this as a real signature or even a real person. But now you can look the name up in the records. We can also get access to source data.

You claim with certainty that you are right and mention Dr. Bhatia (for what exact purpose, we don't know). We all loved Dr. Bhatia very dearly, but the actual fact is - and you should know this since you feel you are accurate in all your other evaluations - that Dr. Bhatia was a notorious pedophile. We would not have mentioned this if the times were not what it is with ignorant people like yourself spreading incomplete facts.

Students have told us they feel amazed at Dr. Bhatia's statements in the Indian press after he was removed from the ashram on a complaint that he had tried to touch a woman in the hospital (which we believe may be baseless). Bhatia was often trying to molest students at the colleges in his years living at the ashram and was removed to the Blood Bank in the hospital so he would not be able to continue with it. Apart from this problem of his, Bhatia is a wonderful person. We hope he has overcome these problems over the years.

An interesting though rather self-conflicting concept, "a wonderful paedophile person". You DO seem confused. But how do you know all this about him then, at second hand, I hope, and for your own sakes, I trust that you loved him in a pure manner! Then we also have the Divine Pederast Avatar too! We sincerely hope they both overcome their predilections and well-earned brashta status in this life or the next! The semi-doctor (blood bank supervisor) Bhatia seems to have a shattered life, having been abused bodily, mentally, and spiritually by your big little man, who once in a discourse boasted of himself as the only male in a world where all as women to him! This is a genuine quote, don't you know? SB gave his own game away inadvertently, it would seem, for Purusha must instead be spotlessly pure.

We noted that in your email, what you and some other people speak mainly of is of actions by all kinds of people - not about Sai Baba himself. You blame other people's actions and decisions on Sai Baba. Of course, it is normal for some to exaggerate and attribute every blame on someone they hate.

You speak only for yourselves here. It is definitely not normal for me, I can assure you! I got past that stage completely many decades ago. You should read what I have actually written (http://home.no.net/enigma) since I learned so many home truths about SB, then you would see what willfully uninformed fools you are making of yourselves in this statement.

For example: If the police shot the intruders to the temple after "long negotiations" as you claim, they must have been aware of the plot in advance?

This is sheer fallacy (non sequitur). So now you are trying to reason it out for yourselves... i.e because you just don't know! The police certainly were aware, they were trying to save their own skins! Their lies to try to cover up their shootings were patently evident to the CBI and other investigators, including the press - backed up by photographic and much witness evidence. You have obviously not studied the seminal work by B. Premanand, 'Murders in Baba's Bedroom' which contains massive documentation from many and also observant independent sources, not forgetting very revealing photographs from the 'arranged' murder scene. I'm afraid that, without proper acquaintance with the multitude of inter-related facts from all perspectives, you are quite out of your depth and are just thrashing water. (I sent the students some samples as an attachment for you to examine, if they dare).

According to your analysis they had to arrest these boys, and later bring them back to the temple after the completion of these "long negotiations" and shoot them after the finalisation of such negotiations.

The intruders were locked into SB's apartment all the time, don't you know? Everyone else does! This is as indisputable a fact as any investigators found.

The fact is that the Indian police had shot the intruders right after spotting them climbing on the wall of the temple, and seeing Ramakrishna's (Swami's attendant) dead body by the door and someone inside.

What fantasy! You would probably believe the report of the Puttaparthi Police Chief, which no one else could! The mass of evidence that is available is wholly against this, which is also why the CID were soon called in (see the array of witnesses and newspaper reports, some of which are highly credible and well-backed by witnesses... also from ashramites, for example about the time of the shooting spree... why, even SB himself in a discourse gives a time long after the incident began! That should satisfy you, eh? What false rubbish you do write!! You demonstrate that you have been brainwashed on this issue, lads. and so about any aspects of the attack and the long connivance to cover it up and quash it all! It was all done and duly recorded too!

They didn't even know they were students, or whether they were imitating dress of students or staff. According to some bystanders, in the confusion one innocent boy was shot as well. Indian police act according to their own decisions. Unfortunately their decisions are not always in the welfare of the general public. So what does that has to do with Sai Baba? You sound very confused to us.

Very far from being as confused as you, as anyone who knows even half the facts could appreciate!

There was absolutely no time for them to take the intruders anywhere for negotiations. As soon as the alarm went off, the word spread that some people had broken into the temple and killed someone (Ramakrishna). From this, villagers and farmers began pouring into the compound, bringing with them axes, sticks, knives, and any object they could use to fight intruders with as they were afraid someone would hurt Swami. There was such an uproar from the villagers with tension (in India, group tensions like this can lead to mass-riots and are very dangerous) that finally Swami came out and requested all villagers to put their weapons down and remain calm. All weapons were left in a big pile in the middle of the Poornachandra.

You blame Sai Baba; the Indians blamed all western visitors and concocted a story that all 'foreigners' were behind the plot. Friends to the boys who were killed say they were after Ramakrishna over a dispute and not after Sai Baba at all.

Sai Baba himself says only envy and hatred was the cause of the whole incident and no other planning or plot at all.

SB has lost all credibility. It has been demonstrated on the Internet and elsewhere (e.g. films that are being sold to national broadcasters around the world) that he lies and concocts to such an extent that you ought to be ashamed even to quote him! His rambling, devious and trivial discourse after the event where he decried the AP press etc. is an example to the world. Not the kind of example you think, however!

The parents of the boys who had barged into the temple had to leave the ashram as the public were ready to lynch them; Swami provided cars for them to be taken out safely from the ashram with their belongings without being harmed.

They were all thrown out after many years of devotion and service. I know from people whose names I am protecting of those who were harassed terribly by ashram and even the CID, as far away as in Delhi even. You see, I DO know. I have read press interviews with the parents of some, plus with Vijay Prabhu, backed by private information from IAS sources. And what of the underage boy (14 years old) called Subbappayya who was apprehended by the intruders with SB in his bedroom when the intruders came in? He was later spirited away from all questioning has been kept incommunicado even until this day. I understand. Was he "serving swami", I wonder? (It is perfectly in order to ask. At least, it is in a free country.)

"The officers investigating into the alleged attempt on Sri Satya Sai Baba on Sunday night have examined Subbappayya {a boy in his early teens}, an inmate of Prashanti Nilayam complex and a prime witness in the case, according to a highly informed source. There are conflicting versions regarding the opening of the doors of Baba’s personal chambers on the fateful night. Union Home Minister S.B. Chavan during his recent visit to Puttaparthi told newsmen that Baba came out from his chamber on hearing some commotion on the ground floor. He scolded the persons creating noise and returned to his room, bolting the door from inside." This version gives rise to several doubts. If Baba had really opened the door and scolded the persons creating noise, why could he not intervene and avert the situation leading to the four alleged assailants attacking his personal guards posted at the mandir. The alleged assailants forced their entry into the personal chambers of Baba and attempted to attack Subbappayya with a dagger. Subbappayya escaped unhurt as the dagger could only pierce through his loose shirt without touching his body. It is learnt that Subbappayya immediately closed the door, bolted it and alerted Baba about the impending danger."

None from saionline wrote from any viewpoint of hatred or judgement, but language is as it is and you have read it according to your own feelings. To some there is no other form of communication but their own language.

You can't make anyone believe that, for you wrote of "ignorant and evil people" and smeared all victims with the same brush of lies that someone has told you without evidence. But you want to retract by half-excuse and sidestep responsibility for your own form of expression now? It's too late. I have never called you evil, so this is exclusively from your language. But you passed judgement here, and some kind of hatred shows, many would sense.

Unlike you lot, I am very seldom at all driven by feelings, but primarily by conscience, duty, truth, dharma and buddhi. All my written work and university teachings and researches, papers, textbooks etc. for many years back in philosophy and spirituality should bear sufficient witness to this.

You are also fully mistaken about the website saionline, just as you appear to be on various other analytical evaluations of yours: this site is not based in Singapore; we did not have "a couple of hundred" participants and have never been "closed down" as you assume. In fact, saionline has so many hundred thousands of viewers that the web counter finally collapsed. The site has been running continuously since 1998. Even now there are some 5,000 hits per day to our site.

I only suggested Singapore was involved. It was not a 'analytical evaluation', for your enlightenment. You rose to the bait and felt you scored a big fish. But it wasn't one, just a 'duck' really. I am fairly reliably informed that your URL once had a membership list - correct us if we are wrong - which, at one point in its existence would have amounted to ca. the figure I stated. I soon became aware however, that the saionline is run by students (evidently largely humanly immature as yet). Another waste of money and efforts to propagandise one who has become a deceiver of the first order! I'm sure you will keep it up, won't you? Nothing like letting the cats out of the bags, and in eight languages.

Anyone who replies from saionline, belongs to a string of volunteers world wide who assist in responding to mails (Mark, Jan, Praveen, Anne, and so many others) according to availability. All responses, whether to you or anyone else, is always signed as support group.

Surnames and locations, if you please! I want to know who wrote this e-mail and takes full responsibility for it. If none of you dare so much even as to stand forth personally, you will be below contempt for the whole world of decent people out here. You still try to hide in anonymity behind an alleged 'group'. In this way you still flaunt your ingenuousness and show that you have no understanding of how smears by nameless people affect the big world out here. So this is a big test for you. Come on, don't be chicken-livered... full and controllable identities of every one of you... and no false names among them, mind you.

None of us as volunteers are interested in disputing with confused people like yourself. If a reasonable person would come forth, it would be worthwhile. Otherwise, what is the point?

You are not capable or well informed enough to dispute with such confusing people as I am for you. But the only point could be that you all have a very great deal you might learn! And not least, I'd say, learn about yourselves and what has come to expression as really being in your hearts. My heart is firmly on the side of the weak and beguiled, but I mostly require that they are at least ready for discovery and support. I have analysed just about the entire method of beguilement, entrapment, brainwashing and growth of the Sai Baba cult (the right word for it, certainly since 2000 AD). But I do not suffer fools without limit, and that is now reached for the time being. So don't bother to reply for I shall junk anything coming from saionline or related addresses. You can state your full names and locations by posting them on exbaba.com, then I would perhaps reconsider you... Meanwhile, I use the opportunity you have provided me to show the general public what you, officially allowed propagators of Sai Baba propaganda, really are up to. It's going on the public record for the future...

Since you are not personally a victim of anything (you don't mention anything, so we assume) your publicizing amounts only to slander - and is evil. Om Sri Sai Ram,
Support Group
www.saionline.org

You confuse slander - at which you have outstripped any detractors of SB by dastardly allegations against ALL the many victims of SB's abuse - with recounting facts. (Did he tell you this untruth, I wonder?) Zero discrimination of facts, no logic, only conflation of ideas and abuse is all you can manage. Evil is the judgement that you - a conglomerate of knowing, loving Sai devotees - pass on another person who you do not know, and whose writings you have not read. It does not touch me but just rebounds, can't you see? If that was your way of expressing "Swami's limitless love and compassion", practising his perfect example, I pity you indeed? I am fortunately able to speak out as the situation requires and I don't have to become a hypocrite because I do not have to conform to SB's absurd vague commandments about not saying what you mean but merely pretending agreeability and all the other duplicity he shows you, like covering up all that goes against his reputation (what's left of it). My comments directed to you refer to what you have written, not to the persons as such. If you perhaps feel you took a factual thrashing, that can be a rewarding experience in the longer run.

As to victims... there are very many victims like me... victims not of the sneaky "first hand experience" or the rest, but of the tremendous deceit SB is practising. Over one hundred ex-devotees have signed the public petition (plus many other concerned citizens)... this takes a lot more courage than creeping around under the cover of an amorphous group of young persons with the backing of the whole Sai power-mad machine, deluded by what they demonstrate they cannot hardly begin to understand yet.You are all working very effectively (against your own imagined ends) to help ensure the final bursting of the bubble when the next 'big incident ' occurs. You will have contributed to a yet greater disenchantment with all having to do with SB.

Meanwhile, all read what the excellent Swedish psychologist, Åsa Samsiøe, has very recently posted in reply to you on exbaba.com. She conveys an example and a really spiritual teaching for you.

I love this one: Apart from this problem of his, Bhatia is a wonderful person. It reminds me of: "Besides that Mrs. Lincoln did you enjoy the play?"

But I also think whoever writes should not be using personal insults i.e: "Your response shows a very immature and confused mind. It is very obvious that you are more interested in arguments for your own emotional satisfaction than for the sake of actual understanding. A mind full of hatred cannot see anything in its right light. Five interviews do not give you much insight into the actual life and actions of Sai Baba. Your comments are based on limited views and fragmented understanding" "your publicizing amounts only to slander - and is evil."

And yes, where does this new version of the 1993 murders come from? He should also be reminded that we are seeing it in terms of an exposé where we want the truth to come out and he is seeing it in terms of a cover up. He thinks you are coming from anger and evil, where is he coming from? I hope that your next letter will have a touch of finality to the discussion...