Testimony from rrachelr79

 

From rrachelr79 on:

Sathya Sai Baba Discussion Club, message 685,729,730, 834, 835, 963 and 976:

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibabadiscussionclub

Date: 10/31/00 9:39 p.m.

Sanjay:

Some years ago SB said that those that leave the Sai Organization are very unfortunate. Being a devotee that time and I felt "fortunate", since at that time I did not want to leave the Sai Organization.

God, as SB says, is beyond the smartest intellect and having the 3 O's may do as He pleases. Based on that it may be possible that SB is God and caused to happen all this allegations for the benefit of humankind. I do not think so, but that may be true. And if eventually SB or someone else demonstrate the world that all allegations are fiction, I doubt it, be sure that legions of former devotees will gladly return the Sai fold, myself included. And if he is God and allows this allegation issue to succeed then we will just be witnessing the Divine Plan. No harm since, as SB says, God has the love of thousand mothers not only to Sai devotees but for the whole creation and may understand the limits of our understanding.

Additionally SB also says that is better to follow his teachings than believing in him. And no matter what form of God we choose to worship at the end we will be adoring the same God.

We have intellect and, based upon same SB's teachings, we need to use it and first have confidence in our inner Self. We, former devotees, may be wrong from your point of view and you may continue to be "fortunate", that is fine, but you may lose respect by the way you express your opinions about people you do not know, considering that out of the millions of devotees very few had the opportunity to be close enough to SB to have a worthy opinion about him and many of us just know what other people say about him as well as his recorded and printed messages.

I have got in touch with some devotees that after knowing the allegations follow strictly what SB says about not indulging in Internet, not discussing about their God with anybody, speak softly and lovingly, etc. And to them I can only show but respect.

Morphet's quote is a good speculation from someone that seems to be convinced about SB's divinity.

Remember that SB says that when you point one finger to one person three are pointing to you.

Rachel

Message 729

Date: 11/2/00 9:44 p.m.

Sanjay:

Allegations are not just about anointing, I do not have anything against that, in fact a friend of mine was touched by SB and he never thought it was wrong, neither do I. Allegations include other kind of issues like sexual abuse as well as murders, faking, money washing, etc.

Not only you will be happy if the allegations are proven to be false, be sure that many, many devotees that today are in anguish, many silently, will feel relief. I can tell, from direct experience, that the decision period is a very tough one. I am not happy when an article like the one in the Telegraph is published. But at the end everything is the Will of God.

In my opinion SB gives value to the Sai Org since a big part of every World Conference is dedicated only to the Sai Org affairs and I do not remember in which one but in a discourse given to Office Bearers SB said that those who leave the Sai Org are very unfortunate. I think the Sai Org is a very tough place to be, in since, at least in my experience, people tend to fight a lot, much energy is wasted in useless activities, and, in my opinion has a kind of military hierarchy. It is said that the Sai Org provides a spiritual environment to help individuals to grow. That may be true, however I am not qualified to give any judgment on that. As yourself I left the Sai Org some time ago and it was a very difficult process to me.

I admire your endurance and the way you keep track of so many conversations, in some of them you have almost make me doubt. However I also think the way you treat some people decreases the quality of your opinions. I have not read entirely some of your posts because, in my opinion are aggressive or tend to win a point no matter what. Many people, probably in the same way you use have said the same thing.

SB said that the best devotee of Rama never saw him in person. So closeness to God may be understood in many ways as you correctly pointed out. But I was referring the fact that I had not enough personal experience in the way SB lives nor being close enough to him in order to add value to the allegations. That is the reason I still give some minor chance that those may be proven false.

cont...

Message 730

Date: 11/2/00 9:48 p.m.

Yes, he invites to go and get "direct" experience but that cost money and time that many people does not have and even if you are lucky enough to have the ability to go to India there are so many people in the ashram and the vast majority, in my opinion, get to small contact with him.

"Truth", "Love", "Devotee", "Guru", etc are wide, wide words and very easily misused. So I will say that disciple is a more appropriate word for my former relationship with SB. And a disciple gets advantage of a Guru's teachings when follows them. So following some SB's advises and teachings really changed a lot my life, I can really say that it was a big change after I began practicing his teachings. And yes, that convinced me about him and considered myself a SB follower. Of course there were dreams, and other experiences, I loved listening about other peoples stories.

I call me now a former devotee because I think that faith does not have grades. You have or you do not have faith and it is something you can not change just by willing it, at least I can not. So I found that I began to doubt a lot about SB and I just could not continue as before. And based on my factual experience in other human affairs, I think that the evidence against SB is enough to me in order to have reasonable doubts about his claims.

Yes, I think that God is much, very much beyond my understanding. While still being a disciple I always wondered why SB permitted the Gulf War, AIDS, Pollution, etc. And I still think that there are many hidden truths that prevent me understand that. With my current capabilities I can not see more of what my senses and understanding allow me. So based on that again I say that all this may be a lila of God. I do not think so, but time will be our best bet. :)

During some time I wanted to learn Telugu in order to understand SB without the translation misinterpretation but then and now what I have are the translations. And yes, SB quote about indulging in Internet activities may refer to this kind of discussions but also may refer to other thing. And that is precisely an issue that I do not like because in my opinion there are many ambiguous statements in SB discourses.

SB says that thoughts are like the second hand of a clock, deeds are like the minute hands and habits like the hour hand. I still am in the learning stage, working on the "second hand" and not consider myself wise, probably informed will be a better word and misinformed an even better from other people´s point of view. :)

I think your last question is answered also. :)!!!

Message 834

Date: 11/7/00 10:24 p.m.

Some thoughts...

Hi Sanjay

I hope you have been being and doing well (you seem to be very popular around here!!)

Yes, you are right, for many of us all we have are testimonies, news paper's articles, talks, stories, etc. However there is a common pattern that for people like me looks suspicious. And if you have doubts about someone, then how can you have faith? Words that are not backed with actions are hollow. In my SB follower's time the more appealing fact about SB was that he seemed to follow his teachings (at least to me). Up to now SB's only public comments about allegations are saying that he is pure, that people should not indulge in gossip and that is human way not his. I would really expect more from someone who claims to be an Avatar. And again, time will tell. :)

SB praises Rama as an ideal in terms of Dharma (that mainly is practice). And in SB's Ramakatha he includes the part in which Sita needs to go through the fire just to prove her purity (and Rama was well aware that Sita was innocent!!). Since the Ramakatha is narrated in first person suggesting that SB and Rama are the same person then why so different reactions? And I can post so many, many more examples like that. The problem is that those examples are based on written stories and translations of SB's words and are subject to interpretation so we can have endless discussions or arguments defending each's point. So many of us are left with our discrimination and inner voice. I do not consider myself as anti-Sai, just someone that think of him as a very clever person taking advantage of others, and if proven all or some of the allegations I will not hate nor be angry at him just help to spread that information so less people are prone to be abused. At this time since, in my opinion, there is not a conclusive verdict about the allegations all I do is to invite people to make research and make up their minds by themselves.

In my understanding the reason of being in this world is to learn some times with experiences that are not pleasurable so pain is unavoidable sometimes but I think you choose to suffer yourself in other times. So to me Sai Org, treated in the same lines as we have discussed may be a very good school with all the problems, contradictions, etc. that has in it, I do not think so, but I am unable to win any argument about it since I do not know God's plan. And yes, agree with you, to be mySelf is a fantastic way of being spiritual. I also agree that it is useless to try to convince someone else of subjective stuff.

I said I almost doubt because you show so much faith in SB that, being critic of myself, I wonder how "better" or "necessary" would it be to have that strong faith in something or someone else but yourSelf, to be honest that is still not very clear to me at this time. It is not a coincidence that you have such a wide participation in this discussion room.

Regarding miracles, it may sound contradictory but I never doubt about them (the fact is that I also never gave them too much significance) and I still think he has the ability to perform some, but the evidence (videos an testimonies) about faking, to me, suggest that he may not be in total control of that ability. In my opinion, at least at the beginning many people go to India with a very critical attitude and it would be very hard to cheat all of them.

Cont'd...

Message 835

Date: 11/7/00 10:25 p.m.

Yes, I also have noticed that SB discourses were different between SS edition and other sources. In fact those of the SS almost seem boring to me in many cases. When I read the Dassara discourse the first time I was unaware of the allegations and I just thought that he probably was talking about all sex, commerce, dating, etc. sites in Internet. After I made some Internet research to me the same paragraph sounds like he is talking about all "bad stories" and "gossip" in Internet related to him. And even you, with your actions, at least to me, tell that there is value in coming here and indulge in them.

Totally agree with you that the world requires a lot of Seva, the real one as SB recommends, something that I definitively will not stop doing (and love about SB's teachings), probably not 365 days a year but as much as my ego allows me :)!!

I whish I had more time but family is first!

Message 963

Date: 11/13/00 12:56 p.m.

Thank you Margo

People used to get close to SB for many reasons, I tend to think that the majority of them (the reasons) are selfish. I remember reading a discourse in which SB was saying something like: "Out of all people gathered here, there is none who comes to give, everybody here are asking for something" that deeply touched me because I realised that a big deal of my relationship with God (at that time I considered SB as my God) was asking for something even the opportunity to serve.

It was hard to realise that trying to be good in some cases is an egoistic attitude particularly when you are trying to become better because you are using a context to meassure it. Context allows comparison, comparison creates opposites, opposites create degrees, tones, etc. The mind is always playing games.

And as have mentioned before I no longer consider myself a SB's follower. But those things that I post are so alive and keep fueling my inner search.

Thank you again!

Message 967

Date: 11/13/00 2:15 p.m.

Sai Org is a human entity prone to fail in which any other human gathering may fail. During my time in the Sai Org I was opposed to so many things done there but considered that in front of me there was an excellent opportunity to improve myself and I know many people still thinking like that. Being separated from it for a while I do not consider any longer necesary to join a spiritual group to "grow" (this word may be controversial) but do not regret my time there, I also had very good times, much more that the challenging ones, and also had the chance to meet many extraordinary people. But it is true, from my view, that there are also people which escape reality trhough Sai Org and really want to believe fairy tales, other may have an empty life and find a warm place to be in, etc.

The process of trying to practice meditation, doing seva, etc. in fact made me more "aware" (another tricky word) in my regular life so I felt more awaken and began taking more conscious decisions in situations in which I formerly behaved like a robot.

I like very much SB's example about the flame's ability to lit many other: given some prerequisites, its closeness may make you one! So I still belive in satsang for people that, like myself are in the search.

India is such a different world!! Talking about other cultures is risky since it requires mostly an non intellectual uderstanding. However there are common basic notions for everybody, a foundation even for SB's doctrine of One Religion. Based on that, depending on your background you may accept some inconsistency in any given framework. But that has a limit, today the allegations are not totally proven but give a reasonable foundation to trust them (and believe me, I would be happy if proven false!!) so for many of us create strong doubts about SB's integrity. And when that happens you no longer are able to "believe" (other very tricky word in this context) in something in which you have doubts.