Testimony from ex-devotee Said
(Afshin) Khorramshahgol from
Iran
Author: Said (Afshin) Khorramshahgol Email: shagols@itdc.koreanair.com
Tue May 27 09:45:33 1997
Publisher: The NEURAL SURFER Publication date: May 1997From: http://members.tripod.com/~dlane5/saideb3.html
Hello Professor Lane, as we had talked, I am giving you a thorough account of my experiences with Sai Baba. I hope that this will be of interest to people and will help them to understand what Baba is all about. Thank you for giving me the chance to write this essay.
I first got to know of Sai Baba in 1985 or 1986 through my brother. His friend had given him a book on Sai Baba which had a picture of Baba on the cover. I asked my brother who this person is and he explained to me what he so far knew about him. Being born a Moslem I rejected Baba from the very beginning because I couldn't believe that another person - another human form if you want to be philosophical about it - could be God. It wasn't until 1990 or 1991 that I started to believe in Baba. At that time in my life I was very confused about life and the purpose of my existence. Many unanswered questions were in my mind and I was very confused and unhappy. Having heard of the "miracles" of Sai Baba through my brother who WAS A DEVOTEE OF SAI BABA, I thought to myself that if Baba can do such miracles, then he must know more about life, the world, the purpose of life, etc. I then started taking Sai Baba seriously. I started reading about him and also his teachings. Now that I look back, in all my confusion and mental torment, I was so desperate to believe in some philosophy that I jumped to believe in Baba and his philosophy. Also, I came to believe that Sai Baba is God by reasoning that he MUST BE A HOLY PERSON, and so he couldn't lie. If he can't tell a lie, then he is God because he says so. When I came to this conclusion, I felt as though I was in heaven. Could you imagine a day when God or a Messenger of God comes to earth and you get to be with him, close to him, see him, talk to him, etc? Could you imagine being next to the Messenger of God and believe full heartedly that He will save you? Could there be a better situation and feeling? That is how I felt and that's how people feel when they first come to Sai Baba or any other person who says they are a Messenger or are divine or are in contact with God. At the beginning of my following Baba, I felt in seven heaven for months. I couldn't get enough of looking at his pictures, meditating, reading his teachings and living life in accordance with his teachings, etc. I was totally being absorbed by him and his philosophy. Looking at other Sai devotees - followers - I found out that this is true for all devotees, that all who come to Baba, are in ecstasy first few months and later become very mentally distressed individuals. I am sure the current Sai devotees would dispute this but I have seen it over and over again. When I was feeling mentally distressed for reasons that I will soon explain, I would tell anyone and everyone that meeting Sai Baba was the best thing that happened to me and that I had never been happier. It wasn't until much after that I realized that I was fooling myself to the point that I totally ignored and thought that there was no pain. Upon my studies on psychology, I realized that humans tend to do that. They tend to pretend something is true, to the point that it looks more and more as reality to them while others can see those short comings in them. I have seen many short comings in Sai devotees which they claim are not there. So, I was very happy to have come to know of Sai Baba, of God. I put his teachings into practice fully. Slowly, I started to wear out. Baba's teachings are very hard and I couldn't keep up with them. For example it was hard to try to remember God at all times, especially when you have to concentrate on your daily tasks and God at the same time. I started feeling guilty for not being able to live up to Baba's teachings and I would tell myself that I should be ashamed of myself for not doing what God wants me to do. Who or what kind of person gets to know God first hand and have the good chance to know him, while many billions of people don't know him, and still not follow his teachings? I was failing on many instances, such as remembering God, being celibate, not listening to the desires of the body, the senses, the mind, etc. I had a very hard time remembering God and not falling to temptations. I was 19 or 20 and my hormones were exploding. Everytime I met Baba, he would tell me to control my sexuality and so on and I wasn't able to. When the hormones were going full swing I would try to ignore my "bad" thoughts by trying to remember God. 99.99999% of time I would fail. I would play with myself - I didn't have any girlfriends or even girls as friends with whom I could possibly start a relationship; having girls around could arise temptations and would be very bad for spirituality, so I thought. So, I would play with myself and when doing so I would feel very guilty and when finished I would feel a thousand times more guilty. I would scorn myself to many things like being disobedient to God, not having enough faith, not having enough will power, not loving God - Sai Baba - full heartedly, etc. You might be asking me why I am emphasizing guilt. As a result of all of this I ecame very depressed and also I had a lot of paranoia. I came to the point that from the pain, my chest felt like had opened and I could feel every cell in my chest blowing from the pain as if they were boiling water. At the same time I was very paranoid about things. After years of telling myself that I was stupid and not good enough, I had somehow come to the belief that I was crazy. I would interpret every sentence ten different ways. And I was very confused as to which of the ten was the right meaning. Can you imagine thinking you are crazy and interpret things as such? Could you imagine doubting every single thought you have? Could you imagine thinking to yourself if your understanding of every single thing is correct? It gives such pain that I cannot explain, and I am not only making it big, but since you haven't felt it, it is small. I had to choose between the face value and the ten other meanings which I had come up with. And what did Baba do or how did Baba direct me at my times of need? Well, in all my interviews he would scorn me for not being strong enough, he would tell me to just do, never try, just do. He told me that I was very weak. If he knew anything about my situation, he would tell me something to bring my spirits up, instead of daring to tell me things to further break me down. When he told me I was weak, I would be harder on myself when I fell again. I would tell horrible things to myself, such things as "It is no wonder you are stupid...", "Baba has read you nicely, you are so stupid.", etc. This kind of self-bashing had become a trend of thought which I still fight. The simplest thing Baba could do was to tell me to not feel guilty. But instead he was satisfying his own DESIRES in the private interviews with me. As a result of all this depression and paranoia, I slowly got away from practicing the teachings of Sai Baba. Everytime I would try to do what he said, I would feel more depressed and paranoid. Ofcourse, it was very hard to do so, as I still believed in the divinity of Baba and his teachings. What gave me a real push was a movie which my brother - another brother who is a non-devotee of Baba - gave me regarding Sai Baba. The movie was filmed by a Korean research group which visited Baba. They caught him cheating on the "materialization" of a necklace. The picture was so clear and it sent me into shock. However, it took me over six months to come to deal with the movie. During this six months, everytime a thought of the movie came to my mind I would push it away and destroy it as was a trend of my mind by then. All "negative" thoughts or thoughts that are obstacles to my "faith" were to be destroyed immediately and replaced with "good" thoughts. So, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the movie showed, I had a hard time dealing with it until over six months later. Any thought that Baba might be cheating or might not be God made my stomach so very much upset and my mind so very disturbed. But eventually I had to deal with the problem. When I had finally dealt with the movie, then it was time to look for any reasons which Baba would do such a thing. This had also become a trend of mind, which is very much prevalent within the Sai devotees. In any situation, Sai devotees, would start to logic by saying "Baba is God, therefore he is fully pure". Then all else was put into perspective based on that. After a while this sentence is passed and you make all decisions based on this sentence subconsciously. I made up some reasons as to why Baba would cheat on that particular materialization. Of course, I thought that Baba was cheating on that particular materialization. Another idea which is very prevalent within Sai devotees is that if something goes wrong regarding anything is a result of Baba's will. He wanted it to happen so and it most probably is a test of faith. But then if that is the case, then what would justify a problem and what is a test of faith? I had to deal with this question also. I am sorry for taking you through so many ideas but I am purposely doing so to show you the level of mind control which is imposed on EVERY Sai devotee. How can such thinking be anything spiritual? Of course, to every Sai devotee, this is the way to Salvation since they are in the middle of it and they have full faith in the teachings which bring about such thoughts and mind control. I was going through so much mental decision-making and you would be surprised why I would do such a thing in the face of so many other experiences which I had with Baba. I will explain those experiences now. I visited Sai Baba three times, on three straight summers. Once I stayed there one and half months, another time I stayed two and half months and the last time I was there for three and half. My first two trips I had seven interviews and a total of seven private interviews, with just me and Baba in the private interview room. Baba had materialized a gold ring with three stones which he told me were diamonds. The ring did not fit the finger on which Baba had placed it but I left it there regardless, as that was the finger Baba had chosen to put it on. Here I would like to mention that of the four rings which Baba has "materialized" for my family and myself, none of them fit correctly. In all the books regarding the "miracles" of Sai Baba, you will read that ALL such rings fit the person perfectly. I have never read a book were it was told that almost all rings fit perfectly. And also, later I found out that the stones were not diamonds. The stones after a while got black and two of the three fell out. I took this to mean that Baba is angry at me for not being good, for not practicing his teachings as well as I COULD, for trying and not doing. Another thing that was interesting was that Baba would not be able to tell things correctly. In one instance I was told by him that the night before I had fever. I didn't, neither was I in any kind of heat. Perhaps he wanted me to, but I wasn't. I just let it go, destroyed it right there and then, that very instant. No doubts were allowed. In my first private interview, Baba did a ceremony which is supposed to be sacred in Hinduism and is done to all the followers by their gurus. This practice involves the guru putting oil on his hand and pushing his hand upward between the front testicle and the back area. That area is supposed to be a special area which is very important to spiritual practice of the devotee. This action is supposed to awaken this area, which is supposedly full of energy, which will then play an important role in the thought of the devotees. In my case, it was more of the opposite and my thoughts were never changed for the better. I was getting worst as time passed. In every private interview after that Baba would ask me to put down my pants while he massaged my testicle. I would reason that Baba perhaps is passing some energy to that area. Perhaps I had damaged that area or something in that area by playing with myself. I had found reasons in order to destroy any doubts that might come to mind. In one occasion, Baba was not just massaging it, he was trying to give me a hard on. The thought that he is doing so came to my mind then, but of course I destroyed it. Now, as an ex-devotee, I am able to see and think about what he was doing, rather than destroy it. At this interview, as he was pushing his hand back and forth on my testicle, I was telling him about many different things on my mind. Of course, I was so sure that he is doing the best thing for me that I was thinking of something else. I was telling him about the problems in my country of Iran, how the people are suffering, the problems of my family and my own problems. He couldn't get me hard so all of a sudden with anger and an angry face he threw my thing up against my stomach and with an angry face he turned his back to me. I thought he is probably angry at me because I should have more faith in him, he already knows all my problems, everything in my mind, and he will help me in whatever way he can. Actually, he was angry that I didn't get hard and so when he turned towards me he told me to put my pants up again. This was the only occasion which he kept some distance between me and him while he was playing with me. Every other time, he would hug me and do it. My question to those who believe that Baba's intentions in playing with me was pure is that if Baba says not a blade of grass moves without his will, then why does he have to touch me in that way to perform whatever pure intention or will he had in mind? Or is it that when he was playing with me, he was being good to me by giving me the privilege of being close to him and interact with him? For those who are not following, Sai followers believe that Baba knows all our inner thoughts and the reason why he talks to us is because he is trying to talk to us for our own enjoyment. He really doesn't have to talk at all or ask us questions regarding our lives since he is the All-knowing. He does so for our sake, so that we can talk to him and interact with him. Could it be that Sai Baba was playing with me in order to satisfy my needs to interact with him? And what kind of satisfaction did he - or do you - think I would get from that kind of interaction? In almost all of such interviews, Baba would breath harder and sometimes he would make noises too. Something I forgot to tell you about the private interview above was that while I was telling Baba about these problems, his face was getting uneasy while he constantly, the whole time was looking down at my testicle. His eyebrows got twisted and his face got more and more upset as he was trying to play with me. I wonder why? He sometimes would tell me that I was weak there, there was too much being wasted from there, etc. Why then did he touch it? Was he fixing things? Why did he have to fix things by touching and rubbing and going back and forth? In one interview, he stood up while I was kneeling on my knees. With his right hand, to took my head and put it against his stomach. With his left hand he took my right hand and put it against his testicle. He rubbed my hand there for a short while and this time he was making loud noises of... I tried to look up to his face to see it, but he pushed my head hard against his stomach and did not allow me to look up. So, I didn't try again. While he took my hand there, I felt his testicle, although I didn't grab it, I just let him direct my hand and do whatever he wants. At the same time, I would touch him by the outside part of my hand. As I said before, he was making loud voices while he was doing that. This took about two minutes before he let go of me and my hand and said "This is God"!!! Whatever!!! It was his way of putting a controlled mind to think and find many answers to what that whole situation was all about. It was his way of covering the sick idea of having me touch him, and also covering his loud, wild voices. Anyhow, those of you who have a clear and logical mind understand me. I had these experiences and still it took me over six months to deal with the movie that I mentioned before. After dealing with this movie, I went to look over some of the movies which we had about Baba. These movies are movies which are prevalent within Sai devotees. The very first movie which I watched is called "God lives in India". In that movie they showed about four or five instances which Baba cheats the "materialization" of ash - ash is supposedly holy and is supposedly being created by Baba from thin air. One of these instances is a very close, clear shot which shows Baba take something with his right hand from underneath of some letters in his left hand while bending over a bit to talk to someone. He then takes the letters by his right hand and cleans his left hand. Then he takes the letters from the right hand and immediately starts to motion his right hand in circular motion which is a "sign" that he is going to create something out of thin air. This shot is a close-up and very clear. After seeing this first movie, I knew the truth and didn't watch any other movies. I am sure if the other movies have segments that show Baba's actions twenty seconds prior to each "creation" of ash or whatever, you can see him cheating. More recently, there was a movie on cable TV here in the US which showed Baba CHEAT on materialization of a ring or necklace, I don't remember. There was much argument about it on the internet newsgroups. Bon Govani, a Sai devotee, defended his opinion of what the movie showed by saying each person saw a different thing. What everyone, including Bon agree on is that Baba does some weird thing with his hand under a plate before he brings down his hand and starts to circle his hand. Sai devotees have their own way of thinking and so their own reasons and answers. It will be impossible to convince these people on anything. The more you use your reasons to find something or some way to prove your points, the more they will use their twisted reasoning to counter attack your ideas. Their counter attack is 99% illogical since they are used to twisting things around. Besides what good is a logical path which starts with "Baba is God..."? Baba is God, therefore, he couldn't have cheated on that movie, therefore, everyone sees a different thing when they see that movie. They don't think that what kind of motion is Baba making? Why is he making that motion? Why is he making it under the plate? Why the need of that motion? Etc. So, I am looking forward to getting a lot of illogical responses to this essay. I welcome them and look forward to disproving any illogical ideas. I hope that their responses and my replies will give all of you a hint of how brainwashed the Sai devotees are and what a sorry state of mind they have. Hopefully, those Sai devotees who still have some reason left can benefit substantially from this and can overcome all mind control tricks that have been imposed on them. And, hopefully, all those who are considering Sai Baba, would have the luck to see these postings and can benefit from them too. I really hope so. I would like to give an example of how illogical Sai devotees can be. The following are excerpts fromhttp://psg.com/~ted/bcskeptics/sbmir/db-book.html.
It's a great site at getting some information on Sai Baba's real personality. This is a quotation from John Hislop's book on Sai Baba. He was one of Sai Baba's closest followers and passed on a few years ago, still a devotee. You will find the following amusing. "We can get a sense of Sai Baba's diagnostic `ability' from the following account which happened to John Hislop. 110 - Sai Baba's Misdiagnosis of John Hislop's Medical Condition: 'While asleep in Brindavan in the month of October, 1978, without any prior warning to me, the prostate suddenly closed off the urethra. What happened then was agonizing, but nevertheless most comical. When Baba came down from his apartment, about 8 a.m., I told him that the urethra was closed and that already the bladder was very swollen. He smiled, said not to worry, and gave me vibhuti ["holy" ash]. About 11 a.m., he returned from inspecting some new construction and as he came to the veranda, both Dr. Goldstein and I approached him saying that my condition seemed to be serious. Baba came up to me, looked in my eyes, patted me on the head and said not to worry, it was just the heat. Then at 4 p.m., when Baba usually came down after rest, I did not wait, but sent a note upstairs that the situation was steadily getting worse and that now severe pains were moving back and forth throughout my body. Baba came down immediately. In the group of devotees waiting for him, there were, as usual, several physicians, including Dr. Goldstein from California. Without any discussion, Baba told the doctors to take me at once to the hospital and operate if necessary. Now the comedy quickened. We got into several cars and went to Baba's hospital for women in Whitefield. The Medical Officer-in-Charge, Dr. Mrs. C. Rajeswari, made an examination room available, and the assembled doctors tried some 20 or more times to insert various sizes of catheters into the bladder, but with total failure. By now I was in agony, although I bit my tongue and kept silent. It was the immediate decision of the doctors that an emergency opening would have to be made through the wall of the abdomen... At Bangalore, the job was botched by the resident surgeons; heavy infection set in, and in three days Baba ordered me back to Brindavan...Baba arranged for the operation at the Whitefield hospital...The care was magnificent...The entire inside of my abdominal cavity was filled with virulent infection, and the tissues were so rotted that standard operating procedures could not be used... Why the big comedy in the whole affair? It took me some time to figure it out...Why the deadly complications at the Bangalore hospital?...Finally, at the time of another visit, I told Baba that I had figured the matter out. My conclusion was that I had come to the end of my natural life, Baba had let me go down to the final step, and at the last moment, he had reversed my natural death by giving me rebirth. Baba smiled and confirmed that what I said was true; he had given me new life. After returning home to Mexico in January, some continuing complications arose which took me into a Mexican hospital and then an American hospital. Baba sent word to not worry, that these were just rebirth pains.'[!?!?!?!??!?!] John Hislop, My Baba & I, pp. 49-51." I have always enjoyed reading this passage and still do enjoy it. Great comedy indeed! One thing that I forgot to say is that on my last trip to India, there were about 20 American and Indian American college students which came to attend Baba's summer classes which mainly concentrate on spirituality. Some of these students considered themselves devotees, others had come to see and judge Baba for themselves. In an interview Baba "materialized" a ring or something else for either all of those students or majority of them. At least half of those students say that they saw Baba CHEAT. They reported that they saw Baba take and put things from the sides or back - I don't remember which one they said - of the chair that he was seating on. When I say the sides or the back I mean the sides of the cushion of the chair or the backside of the cushion. These students were firm in what they saw. After this interview, some four days later, Baba was out giving darshan - walking around, sometimes stopping to talk to some individuals, sometimes choosing individuals or groups of individuals for an interview. He stopped in front of the American students which were sitting in an area that was designated to them. He made the circular motion, and supposedly created some ash and threw it on one of the student's face. During this time, his back was to me. When he turned around I saw his face was very angry. He was pissed! As usual, as you know why, I didn't give importance to this. Later, one of the boys in the American group, with whom I had become very close told me that this student who was thrown ash to face and eyes was very vocal about what they had seen in the interview room, namely, Baba taking things from the chair on which he sat on. Now, if Baba's life is his message as he says so, then is it right that we act in this way when someone criticizes us? I am sure I'll get a few reasons as to why Baba did such a thing. Or at best, I might get something like Baba's intentions are not known to us and that I can't say why he did that. I'll be looking forward to reading the reasons. I welcome all comments and suggestions to my e-mail: shagols@itdc.koreanair.com Before I go, I urge all who are interested in Baba to see the movies that I mentioned and also to get to now Sai Baba devotees very personally. Be as close as you can to them as if they are your best friends. Study them and see if they have changed as a result of knowing Baba. I am sure you will come to the conclusion that although they are doing more service, their personality is kind of deceiving and hypocritical, since they proclaim one thing and act another. Another thing I would like to say is that all of the ex-devotees of Sai Baba that I know have realized that life was a misery to them while they were following Baba. Do not be fooled by the devotees that say they have peace of mind. I have seen many who proclaim better state of mind but really are very nervous people. Thank you for your time and patience through my long and complicated story.
Email from Said (Afshin) Khorramshahgol to Professor LaneFrom shagols@itdc.koreanair.com
Sat Aug 30 14:12:31 1997
Hello Professor Lane. I am responding to a recent post. I feel that there are too many generalizations in this gentleman's post and it has to be cleared. Thanks David's post are placed in two opening and closing paranthesis.
((Dear Mr. Lane: I would like to make a few comments addressing the various question brought forth by the postings on your web site about Shri Sathya Sai Baba. Ordinarily I would not write this email, since I believe it is virtually impossible to change somebody's mind once he is convinced of something and it is often pointless to go back and forth with arguments and counter-arguments. However, since you graciously post dissenting views along with your own at your site, my mail may help others who read your postings and have not already made up their minds. So I would appreciate it very much if you could post this (if you find it worthy) along with other postings in your 'Sai Baba debates'.))
On the same token, since its hard to change someone's mind, I am not going to try to do so, I'll just try to clear the misconceptions. ((Let me state at the outset that I am not a 'rabid' Sai devotee (if you can call these gentle folk that). I do have faith in his avatarhood and I have visited his ashram (for 4 days) while I was in India for other reasons. I am not a member of any Sai group and have not attended any of their meetings, bhajans etc. My explanations about the nature of Sai Baba is offered without any 'proof', these explanations you can read and accept if you find reasonable, reject if not.)) Four days is a very short time to give an opinion about Sai Baba.
Furthermore, you are not associating with the Organization and their events. What do you know about Sai Baba? How did you come to believe that he is an avatar? ((- Is he the head of a cult ? Yes and No. It is a cult in the sense it has a charismatic leader (but so did Christianity i.e.Jesus). It is not a cult in the sense there is nothing to join, no dues to be paid, no specific rules to be followed (except may be when you stay at the ashram and even these are very reasonable), no courses to be attended (or paid for) and no initiations to be taken (or paid for).))
Very clearly you haven't been attending the meetings of Sai Baba's Organization. Baba clearly asks people to follow nine codes of conduct at all times. There are some activities costing in hundreds of dollars which are printed in the quarterly magazine of Sai Organization of America. And wouldn't you agree that if a cult starts somewhere and the leader decides that - for publicity - he will not ask for money, then the fact that he is not asking for money is good publicity for him and will bring him many followers and most probably money too.
When Sai Baba doesn't ask for money, people think that he is not interested in money. When people see that he is doing some charity work, people give them some money thinking that since he is not interested in money, he will spend it wisely. Do you disagree? So, just because Baba doesn't ask for money, it doesn't mean that he is not interested in it. And just because there is no initiation involved - meaning no one will be turned away - works to Baba's benefit, don't you agree? By the way, I have seen Baba's authorities throw out - upon arrival -- a 19 or 20 year old hippie boy because of his looks. Don't you think that this person could have benefited from God Baba's mission here on earth?
Why does Baba not let some stay in his ashram and at the same time say that all are welcome to him and that all are his children? ((The ashram is probably the cheapest place to take a vacation (room rate as I recall, is less than $2) and nobody will bother you if you don't bother them.)) Two dollars is a lot of money for Indian. He is ripping them off. If he wanted to raise the rent to $10, only the wealthy of India would be able to visit Baba and that's not good for publicity, is it? ((You don't even have to attend any of the activities. Nobody will pay you any attention, and definitely no attempt is made to indoctrinate or 'brain-wash' you.)) How do you know that no attempt is made to brain wash you? You were only there for 4 days and you don't go to the Organization's meetings. How can you be sure? Baba is the ultimate mind expert and politician. The same way that he doesn't ask for money just to get people's money, he uses psychology to get your mind.
Read my previous posting on how Baba ignores people so that people desire to talk to him more. ((- Does he rub vibhuti on boys genitals (or to use Mr. Lane's elegant phrase - rub their woodys) ? Apparently, according to the two postings on your site, he does. He also rubs vibhuti on devotees foreheads, throat and chest (read a non-devotee's experience in 'Empire of the Soul' by Paul W. Roberts). Serious students of Indian philosophy (or even casual ones) will recognize that these are the locations of energy centers in the body, the so-called chakras (I know, I know Mr. Lane, nobody has seen these chakras and 'proven' their existence, but humour me for now). The lowest 'muladhara' or the root chakra is just behind the testicles in the male. This is the seat of our animal nature - survival and procreation (i.e. sex. The second chakra below the navel is also related to sex). Apparently these two individuals had some problem in this area.)) You are making a great mistake here. First of all, Baba rubs "oil" in an area "behind" the testicles of boys. I got the same treatment.
He rubs the oil behind the testicle and doesn't do anything with the testicle. This ritual has been a part of Hinduism for God knows how long. It has nothing to do with rubbing something on the dick. Secondly, the dick is not a chakra area either. Third, why did Baba have to touch my dick? Fourth, why did Baba have to hug me while doing so? Fifth, why did he make sexual noises? Sixth, why did he breath harder? Seventh, why did he make me touch his private area? Eighth, why did he make sexual sounds while directing me to touch him? I think if you put two and two together you will see that most probably he is GAY. ((But what about the fact that they felt molested ? We can understand this using an analogy: Doctors (practicing western medicine) will often examine)) Excuse me to cut in. I studied philosophy and took some 5 or 6 classes on logic. Your analogy is a fallacy. You try to compare Baba with a doctor as if for sure Baba has pure intentions while touching us. Are you sure his intentions where pure? If yes, please answer my questions above, like, why did he make sexual noises? ((their patients while they (the patients) are completely disrobed. During this, they may (mock horror!) even stick their fingers into various orifices. It is not uncommon for high strung or emotionally immature patients (usually women) to accuse the doctor of molesting them.))
Thanks Dave, thanks a lot. First say we are "emotionally immature patients" then compare or connect us to women. Why not compare Sai Baba to a Catholic Priest who molests boys instead of making a Doctor out of him? (( These individuals are not lying, they truly feel they have been taken advantage of (No doubt the kind Mr. Lane would give them all a sympathetic hearing). Of course, there are also some doctors who do take advantage of their patients. So it is not surprising that a few persons would misinterpret Sai Baba's actions.)) Considering the fact that you saw him for only 4 days and most probably didn't have a private interview, you must be the one misinterpreting Baba. (( But for a person with literally millions of followers, Sai Baba has very few disaffected ex-devotees (hundreds of students have graduated from his school). )) If you read Jed's accounts you will see that some of his students accuse him of molesting them or their classmates. However, since the whole family are devotees, out of respect - Indian tradition - they are not coming out to the open. But they will. Read Tal Brook's book "Lord of the Air" or contact Mr. Premananda of Indian Skeptics for books on people who have come out.
((Vibhuti, by the way, is ash left over after burning incense - nothing to do with cow dung. Hindus (over 600 million of them) have been putting vibhuti from their temples on their foreheads for thousands of years, long before there was a Sai Baba. I don't mean to accuse anyone of ethnic insensitivity, but I would have expected better from someone who teaches at the university level.)) One thing is for sure, Baba is not creating this ash from no where! He has been cut in two movies, with at least 5 shots of him cheating on creating vhibutti. There goes his claim that he is creating them from no where through his will. Don't you agree that if that is the case, then he is lying? ((- Does he teach anything strange or weird ? Sai Baba has not 'written' any books but there are many books available of his discourses. His basic message seems to be to encourage his followers to be of service to others. Nobody has pointed out anything remotely objectionable in his teachings (Mr. Lane, surely his message should merit some mention in your opinion of him, or are all your lectures at the university based on gossip and innuendo rather than serious study ?). ))
Wrong again, Sai Baba has written a few books. The reason why Professor Lane has not brought up his teachings is because he is too smart for that. After years of seeing evangelists taking people's money by ONLY talking, he will not fall for a Indian with a 'fro. Baba himself says that talk is cheap, so we are looking at his character through his actions, namely molestation, cheating, lying, etc. ((- Is Sai Baba Omnipresent ? Not exactly, he is not present everywhere at once. But his consciousness can be present in several places at once. So you can call him (or to use a new age phrase, invoke his presence) so that he can be aware of your current situation (especially if you are a devotee and have a unique connection to him). He does keep close tabs on everyone and everything at his ashram)) Wait a minute, if you accept that Sai Baba is an avatar, then you must accept that he is omnipresent. After all, an avatar is God in human form. Bon would argue that our understanding of omnipresent is wrong, that it doesn't mean knowing everything. But all religions say that God knows everything. In my opinion, if God doesn't know everything, he is imperfect, agree? I remember that as a devotee, I had to change my ideas of omnipresence and omniscience because I found some short comings in Baba. In order to not lose faith in him, I changed my ideas. 20 ((- Is he Omniscient ? Again not exactly, all the knowledge of this world and its past, is not present in his brain.)) In Sai Baba's monthly magazine, Sanathana Sarathi, there was an essay that discussed how Baba fulfills the prophecies of Prophet Mohammed regarding the chosen one that will come to save the world.
One of the sayings of the Prophet as was printed in Baba's magazine - with his permission of course - was that all the knowledge of the world, past, present and future will be in the chosen one's head. So I figure Baba claims to be omniscient, omnipresent, etc. don't you agree? (( However, he can access this information (about past history as well, from the hall of records - another eastern myth). He can read your mind and so has access to your memory. He may even be misled by any false memory you have or by incorrect information from a person who believes it to be true, unless he bothers to check it with other sources. All this does require some effort on his part, though perhaps insignificant for him.))
So, he is not an avatar and he is lying to everyone by saying he is. In my opinion, he is a black magician. He himself believes in black magicians because once he told a story that involved a black magician Don't you agree that if he is not God, but he claims to be God then he might be a black magician. He might be able to do great magical things, but I know for a fact that he fails at times. So, don't you agree that he might be a black magician in that case? ((- Is he Omnipotent ? No. As the Hindus say, even Brahma has to work within the Laws of Karma and so does Sai Baba.)) Baba says otherwise.
He says that he can do anything. He says that if he wants he can turn the sky to earth and the earth to sky. He says that however, he has to respect the Laws of Karma and not show his power. That is the only limitation the law of karma supposedly has on avatars. Its not that the law of karma will block the powers of God or avatar. It can't, its just that the avatar will not disturb it. So, if you see a short coming in Baba, its not because of the law of karma. If he wrongly tells of your past, then he is imperfect. (( He may be able to delay or accelerate your karma or help you face it, but not eliminate it or change it. (This may explain why he can give a rich man a gold ring, only of sentimental value to him; but not to a poor person - it would just add to his karmic burden). )) Instead of giving expensive jewlery to the rich, I suggest that he give a dose of love. After all, his devotees claim that once in a while Baba gives them this dose of love or emotions of love that makes them feel very good - as a devotee I had some myself, but now think that it was all a play of my own mind and that Baba had nothing to do with it. Wouldn't that be better in order to change the rich person's mind and capture his heart? ((- Does he have supernatural powers ? As the theosophist says, there are no supernatural acts, only natural ones we do not yet understand. Or as Jesus said, "even greater things than these [the miracles I have done] will you do".
He is capable of producing items seemingly out of thin air. He claims he does this by his 'sankalpa' (act of will). There are many anecdotes of this as well as a few reports of fraud (many more of the former).)) Unfortuantley, many people are fooled by magicians. And even more unfortunate is that Baba does not allow cameras of any kind in his compound anymore. So, you cannot catch him cheating on tape anymore. However, I have seen him cheat on three different movies. Just because many people claim to his miracles, does not make him a miracle man. Look at "God Lives In India" and tell me if you believe the millions who believe that he is doing miracles or the few who believe he is a cheat. (( But I prefer to ignore them both, these are mainly to attract people who look for miracles rather the message. Again these acts require some effort on his part. (Note that none of his 'miracles' true or false require any payment))) You are truly fooling yourself Dave. If the guy says that he is performing miracles due to his will, and if he gets caught cheating, then he was lying to everyone. Why can't you compare Baba to the Evangelists for a minute just to see if they compare. I am not asking you to compare him to the Evangelists for ever, just do it and compare and then think about Baba as you want. Honestly, isn't he doing exactly the same thing? Everything is the same between them except that Baba doesn't ask for money, which in my opinion is a new, more pure "looking" way of Evangelism. ((- If not by miracles, why am I impressed ? As I said earlier, his message is simple and beautiful (almost naive for this material world). Also, when you are in his presence (I did not have a private interview so was at least 25 feet from him), a curious peacefulness comes over you (not excitement at all).
This feeling wears off, if you visit him daily on consecutive days. I have been told that this is because your consciousness is already at a higher level as the days pass.)) God help us if higher consciousness means that I will become like Bon and so many Baba devotees that I have seen. Or does the feeling wear off because you get used to being around Baba - God, superhuman, someone special? ((- Is he God ? I am afraid not (sorry to disappoint Sai devotees). But he is pretty close, I believe he is an Avatar. His position on earth is explained in my webpage (http://members.aol.com/dngude/worldorg.htm - this site will no doubt, establish my credentials as a certifiable 'kook'). - Will following him make you happier ? Perhaps, but very likely not. For the following reasons:
1. If your former friends do not like your new association with an Indian Guru, you feel socially isolated. If your own family resents it then you are in real trouble.
2. After you have been on the spiritual path for a few years, all your repressed emotions, anger, resentment, repressed sexuality comes to the fore. These inner demons have to be conquered before you can progress much further.
3. When you come into contact with an Avatar, your personal karma is often accelerated (perhaps because you can tolerate more pain with his help). However, following him can put you on the Path for eventual self-realization, so all this may be worth it. All the information above is my current understanding of the 'truth'. It is offered 'as is' without any warranties. Fallibility is the human condition whatever the Pope may think.))
Thanks for being honest about your opinions. Thanks for accepting that they are opinions after all. Bon on the other hand would tell us his opinions as if fact and scorch us saying we have too many opinions. Unfortuatelly, he used to throw out my fact - three movies - as movies not having any value like Independence Day. I appreciate your honesty. ((As for the two individuals: I am sorry that they feel violated or molested. >From their postings, they appear disturbed persons. I urge seeking a qualified therapist and undergoing counseling (I have my Ann Landers hat on now). There is always the danger of psychological breakdown or worse.)) Unfortunately, I haven't had the luxury of a therapist. I'll do so AS SOON AS I make some more money. ((Thank you Mr. Lane for your indulgence. Regards, 20 Dave (dngude@aol.com)))
Letter to David Bailey
From : IRAN / USA
Source : Afshin Khorramshahgol - correspondence to David and Faye Bailey
Subject : MY ACCOUNT RE SAI BABA
Dear Faye and David, Hello.
Here is a brief account of my experiences with Sai Baba. I apologise for the graphic language of this message, but it is the only way to share my experiences.
I travelled to India three times, from 1991 to 1993. On my first visit to India I was already a devotee of Sai Baba and believed he was God. I had a total of seven private interviews in the first two trips. In the first private interview Sai Baba asked me to undo my pants and drop my underwear. Since I believed he was God I did as he asked. He had already ‘materialised’ oil and he applied it in the area between my penis and anus.
I was told after the interview by some devotees, that this act is done by gurus to their disciples to open a chakra, or source of spiritual energy in the body of the disciple. However I am not sure if this is what in fact Sai Baba had done.
My research since, has not found this initiation ceremony in any Hindu books or scriptures, or among Hindu followers of other gurus.
In every private interview after the ‘initiation’ private interview, Sai Baba asked me to drop my pants and underwear, and he would rub my penis. Once he was rubbing it so hard it was obvious to me that he wanted me to get an erection.
I was busy talking to him about my problems, the problems of my country Iran, and my family’s problems, and I was asking him for his blessing for all of them.
I was not interested in sex or anything, especially with a guy, and so my penis did not grow, now matter how hard Sai Baba tried. Finally, he gave up and threw my penis up and turned away with a very angry face and mumbled something. When he turned back to me, he told me to put my pants on again and the private interview was over.
You may ask why I didn’t stop Sai Baba doing what he was doing if it was so obvious to me that he wanted me to get an erection?
Due to my being brainwashed, I thought I had to throw out this thought as it was another obstacle on my way to reach God. According to Sai Baba, all bad thoughts have to be thrown out immediately and replace with good, pure thoughts - and so I threw out the idea of Sai Baba trying to give me an erection, even though I knew he was.
In another interview, Sai Baba asked me to kneel in front of him while he was standing. He took my head with his right hand and pushed it hard into his stomach. He then took my other hand with his left hand and tried to rub it against his penis.
I did not grab his penis. I just let him direct my hand to his penis, using the outside of my hand, not the palm of my hand. While he was rubbing my hand on his penis, he was moaning sexually.
In the middle of this act, I tried to look up to see his face as I wanted to see his emotions, He didn’t let me. He pushed my head into his stomach harder, and this made me stop my desire to see his face altogether. He finally gave up, realising that I was not interested in grabbing his penis, since I wasn’t willing to use my palm to touch him.
Even this incident didn’t shake my faith in him. That’s how strong is the brainwashing in Sai baba’s organisation.
In all the private interviews that I had with Sai Baba, he would also hug or kiss me, or ask me to kiss him. I had come to reason with myself that he was touching my penis because he was probably healing me of some disease or handicap. I reasoned to myself that Sai Baba asked me to kiss him, or kissed me because he loved me, and kissing on the cheeks is all right - kissing on the cheeks between men is okay in my country.
It was not until I saw a movie that shows Sai Baba cheating, that my faith in him started to crumble. It was only after I left Sai Baba (six months after seeing that movie) that I realised his real intentions in those private interviews.
I am willing to testify in any court of law or in any gathering about the above experiences.
I have been very active on the internet for the past six years and I have saved numerous people from falling into Sai Baba’s evil trap.
Regards,Afshin