Sai Baba: how it works
The following are two series of messages posted by "harisampath", a former member of Sai Baba's security, on the discussion forums:
"Yahoo! Clubs: sathyasaibabadiscussionclub"
These messages are here gathered and reposted in their original sequence.
The first one is "Sai Baba: myth and facts", which deals with some Sai Baba's "exciting miracles", exposing them for what they really are, and showing how some devotees (even if sometimes in good faith), due to their exciting and devotion, give Sai Baba much more glory and propaganda than he really deserves.
The second series is "Sai Baba: how it works", which give us a view of Sai Baba's inner circles, and their "not-so-Divine-and-pure" working methods.
Sai Baba: myths and facts
Hi Everyone,
I am going to post a series of Sai Baba "miracles" and the actual story of what
happened so that devotees can see how these things get distorted far out of proportion.
ALL these stories are from what I had heard personally and I can testify to their factual
accuracy from my own personal encounters with those who knew the facts.
Myth: in the 1970's there was a story doing the rounds in the Sai Baba devotee circles. The story was that an elderly couple from Germany were visiting Sai Baba for the first time in Abbotsbury, Madras where SB was staying. They were seated in the first row, and as Sai Baba went past them, he stopped, turned around, came back to them and said "your daughter and son-in-law were about to be crushed by a truck in Germany on a highway, I saved them". Later, it was found to be true, and their daughter and son-in-law were indeed nearly involved in a collision with a truck, but had a narrow escape.
Effect: all Sai Baba devotees were so excited by this "miracle" and "omniscience" of Sai Baba, that they most enthusiastically spread it all over the place and probably resulted in attracting more devotees.
Fact: what had actually happened was this, their daughter and son-in-law had a narrow escape from a truck collision, and had called their hotel in Madras to tell them about this. As the elderly couple had already left to see Sai Baba, the message was passed onto to some other member of their group who rushed to Abbotsbury to inform them, but couldn't get in as all the lines were full at the Dharshan grounds. So, they passed on the message to some head volunteer to be conveyed to the elderly couple from Germany who were inside. Upon hearing this, news about this was taken immediately to Sai Baba by an eager to please and faithful devotee who said "by Swami's Grace, that couple's daughter and son in law were just saved from an accident in Germany". SB, of course, smiled knowingly and said "I know, I know..." like he always does, and asked someone to move that couple to the first row. As he had not seen them before, he walked past them first, and then upon a volunteer helpfully saying "this is the one, Swami", SB walked back and grandly announced his "miracle". So, a "miracle" was heard "first hand" by all those present nearby and no doubt passed on to hundreds of others, each time a little bit added probably.
When the couple returned to the hotel, they called their daughter in Germany, who naturally confirmed the story. Thinking they were singled out for some "divine grace", this elderly couple were only too happy to "positively" confirm it for a lot of people to report in their books.
Result: one more "miracle" confirmed personally by the recepient , and "seen" by hundreds of others, goes into the records.
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This is a very popular story that was doing the rounds in
1995-6.
Myth: an aeroplane, preparing for landing, in Venezuela, ran into some very serious
trouble. The pilot announced that all was lost. A Sai Baba devotee on board prayed to Sai
Baba, and saw Sai Baba appear in the skies!!! He appeared to be holding his right hand,
palm facing up, and actually holding the plane, till it landed safely. The Sai Baba
devotee, quickly took out her camera and snapped a picture of "Swami in the
skies, among the clouds" (Rs 50-/ in Prashanti Nilayam, by the way). This incident
was reported in The "Venezuela Times" next day as "Indian Saint appears in
mid air to save plane".
Spectacular Effect!!! What a great miracle!!! Swami is giving another example of his
Omniscience and control over nature and saving Grace!!! Reported to all and sundry, along
with thousands of copies of the photo sold and distributed. When Sai Baba was asked about
his comments, he said grandly after taking a look at the photo "where a devotee's
heart is pure, Swami would even save hundreds of people by traveling anywhere".
Later, news trickles in from the inner circle that actually as the plane was going to
crash, Swami was telling those around him that he had just been to the other part of the
world to save a plane as a devotee had called. How fantastic!!!
Fact: like most landings, the pilot was expecting a bumpy touchdown, that is all. And like all Sai Baba devotees (if any of you have ever flown with Sai Baba devotees, you will know what I am saying), this particular devotee instantly started praying to Sai Baba. She had with her a copy of "Avatar" by Howard Murphet which she was reading and held the book close to her heart. As it was quite into early evening and slightly dark, she saw the reflection of the photo on the book cover on the glass window of the plane (the picture she took is an exact replica of the photo on the cover of "Avatar", surrounded by clouds). She was already in a panicky state of mind, and greatly excited, snapped what she thought she saw through the glass window, with her camera. The situation with the plane was ok, and they landed allright.
This was never reported in any newspaper, and there is no paper called "Venezuela Times". All the extra stories about Sai Baba talking about the incident when it is supposed to have happened were later additions, and Sai Baba had later addressed a person during a group interview and said "didn't I tell you when I was going to save that plane?" and of course, the close devotee said "yes, you did, Swami", who would quarrel with God ???
Result: one more spectacular "miracle" goes into the records!!!
Note: in this page you can find other informations about this story, inluding the photo, along with other "miracles".
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This is a very popular story that I have heard since the
1980's....
Myth: in Bangalore, a devotee family was in the habit of conducting weekly bhajans.
Once, after a weekly bhajan session, and after prasadam (consacrated food) distribution
was over, a very little bit of the prasadam was left over. At that time, four persons came
in to the house, saying they were Sai Baba devotees from Puttaparthi, and had come for the
Bhajans. The available prasadam was just about enough to give a little to these four
persons, who left saying "Today Swami himself is here". The next morning, a
fellow staying opposite this house, he was NOT a devotee, asked this family if they had a
nice meeting with Sai Baba the previous evening. This man said "I saw Sai Baba go
into your house yesterday evening".
Amazing Effect!!! Since Sai Baba was in Puttaparthi at that time, and had obviously "bilocated" to this home to bless the devotees. He had come as four persons, and so that the family may know it was him, had even made the neighbor convey this to the family. What a fantastic miracle, which God alone could do. This family was so touched and greatly felt blessed, they called up hundreds of devotees and told everyone how Sai Baba had visited them in person and was actually SEEN by their neighbor. Moreover "Sai Baba" had himself said "Swami himself is here today", after receiving the Prasadam from that house. The news spread like wild fire, gathering momentum as it spread, and also new additions and features. When this family visited Puttaparthi next, they naturally told Sai Baba how happy they were about the "visit", which he was naturally happy to confirm, and it became official for the book writers to report!!!
Fact: what had actually happened was, a group of four persons, on the way back from Puttaparthi were visiting some friends in the neighborhood. They had, by chance asked this family's neighbor the way to the house where Sai Baba bhajans were conducted and were directed there by him. Since this man was not a devotee, he assumed that Sai Baba was visiting, and so bhajans were conducted. And also, as he saw a number of people going there for Bhajans, he thought that Sai Baba had come. The next day he had actually told the family, and that too just conversationally "How was Sai Baba's visit? Did you have a nice meeting with Sai Baba? I saw everything from here". The family immediately jumped to the conclusion that he had actually SEEN Sai Baba himself, and ever on the look out for special "miracles", happily spread the story around. Later that neighbor was asked by someone if he indeed knew for sure that Sai Baba visited that house for bhajan, he replied "of course, I myself saw everything", still assuming that Sai Baba had come personally and so all the crowd was there. This added fuel to fire, and it gathered pace till Sai Baba himself "confirmed" it, and taken along with that visitor's statement "Swami himself is here today", which all devotees say when they are at Sai Baba Bhajans, this became an "official" bilocation miracle.
Result: Sai Baba can bilocate, something which God alone can do, has done so in many places, here is one example with "hundreds of people" testifying...
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I heard this story in 1996.
Myth: a passenger gets into a taxi in Paris, France, and asks to go to a particular address. The taxi driver was not very familiar with the exact location, and so, the passenger who spoke perfect French directed the taxi driver to that address, and upon getting there, gave the taxi driver 200 Francs, saying he will take the taxi drive back in an hour and he wanted the driver to wait. An hour passed and the passenger did not return, so the driver goes up to the apartment complex to the apartment where the passenger said he was visiting and sees a lot of people leaving some kind of a prayer meeting. He sees a big picture of a man in a flowing orange robe and having thick crop of dark hair in the apartment. He says "Hey that is my passenger, he gave me 200 Francs and I have been waiting for him for an hour, is he here???" The Sai Baba devotees are astonished!!! Miracle!!! They tell that man that it was the photo of a spiritual leader in India who was "god". The taxi driver is not convinced and leaves somewhat doubtfully. After a couple of weeks, he returns to that apartment to ask about the "god" they were talking about and whether he could see him. As a group of people from France were leaving for India, this specially "blessed" taxi driver was given a air ticket and asked to join them. He came along with them to India, and straight away was seated in the first row. During Dharshan, Sai Baba came upto him and asked "where is my 100 Francs?". The devotees present with him were amazed at Sai Baba's Omniscient knowledge and confirmation of the "miracle".
Effect: this "great Miracle" of Sai Baba actually bilocating to France for a poor taxi driver and "seen" by so many devotees was spread around to all the devotee groups, along with "evidence" of the "miracle" and also Sai Baba's confirmation of all this. Everyone who hear it passed it on to more people, and nobody doubted this since they all "knew" already that Sai Baba was God and could easily do this.
Fact: what had actually happened was a man from some part of Paris was a stranger to all this Sai Baba phenomena, and someone had given him a book he had read. He got the address of a center in Paris and visited to see what it is all about. He had with him a book that had a picture of Sai Baba as he was traveling in the taxi, which the driver saw. He gave the driver 200 Francs, saying he will be back and went up. After the Bhajan session, someone offered to drive him back wherever he had to go, and he just forgot about the money he had given the driver. When the driver went in to the apartment he saw the photo of Sai Baba there and said "that is the picture my passenger had with him" and NOT "that is my passenger". Since the visitor was a stranger coming for the first time, and had already left with someone, no one knew his name and details and thought immediately that Sai Baba had "visited" them in the form of a stranger. They simply went on and on about Sai Baba's "miracles" to the poor driver and tried to convince him it was indeed Sai Baba who had come. Later, some one got the bright idea of taking this "specially blessed" man to Puttaparthi, when that confused driver came back the next week. They thought, that taking him there will also get them an interview, and it will also be "seva (service)" for a poor devotee to be taken to India, and arranged his ticket too. After coming to Prashanthi Nilayam, they tried to arrange an interview by informing the inner coterie of all the "details" of the "miracle" and so the group along with the driver was seated in the first row. Of course, news about this "miracle" was taken to Sai Baba, along with details of the 200 Francs etc. Sai Baba also got to know from students close by the French translation of "where is my 100 francs" for dramatic effect, and went ahead and "completed" the "miracle" for all to see.
Result: one more"miracle" into the record.
Sai Baba: how it works
First of all, let me say those things that I know for a
fact. Sai Baba is a HUGE fraud and has quite a few people helping him at various levels.
Most of the serious help and active assistance comes from a very close inner coterie of
not more than 6 to 10 individuals, almost all Indians, and been with Sai Baba for several
decades. It is this group that has total control over the trust funds and report directly
and only to Sai Baba. There is second level of people probably numbering between 12 to 20
persons, and this includes a few overseas people. These people also sometimes report
directly to Sai Baba, but mostly have to go through one of the inner coterie. This group
does not control trust funds, but have limited access to funds based on Sai Baba and the
inner coterie sanctioning it. It is from this section that very loyal and committed people
are appointed to the inner coterie.
NOTE: ALL the people in the Inner coterie and the second circle KNOW for a fact that Sai
Baba is hardly Divine but deliberately promote the belief among lower levels of followers.
Some functions of the Inner coterie: Overall organization of the Sai Baba funds, investing the money, interacting with Government agencies, politicians etc. Some functions of the second group: Support layer for inner group, keeping the Sai Baba myth alive overseas, promoting activity among foreign devotees, subtly organizing big donations, and MOST IMPORTANTLY promoting the "miracles" part of the show, both among Indian nationals as well as foreign devotees. Most of the second layer people might be presidents of Sai Councils in various countries, or big states in India.
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Having given a brief summary of the setup at the very top, here is a highlevel overview of how it all works. Remember that there are thousands of details attended to by hundreds of people at various levels on a daily basis, all with different levels of beliefs, loyalties and power.
The very innermost coterie are usually members of the Sai Baba central trust, and are rarely changed. This trust also includes very eminent men from high positions, but these "public figures" are never given any funds handling authority, but more to act as an effective link to the corridors of power, to add respectability to the Sai Baba org, and they have their own vested interests by way of career advancements, for gaining political favors in exchange for helping money laundering etc. These people usually are direct contacts of other members of the inner coterie who directly report to Sai Baba and have been "recruited" as a result of continuous visits over several years and having publicly committed themselves as "Sai Baba devotees".
These members of the central trust would probably have their partial or total involvement in all trust related activities and it would always be in their own interests to keep the "Sai Baba myth" floating, failing which they themselves would be in serious trouble. In fact, they happily go on, given the advantages of doing so, and the disaster of not doing so. ALL these people KNOW that Sai Baba is a fraud, but NEVER discuss it even among themselves. They compete among themselves to be Sai Baba's "right hand" and Sai Baba uses the policy of divide and rule and no one dares to even convey the impression that he believes Sai Baba to be a hoax.
One of the most reliable sources of information about these people is their immediate family members as I found out. Upon carefully cultivating relationships with some of their family members, I found that these people hardly had any respect for Sai Baba in private, were least worried about Sai Baba's "omniscience" or "powers" and NEVER relied upon Sai Baba's "divinity" when it came to matters concerning themselves. Also, whenever ANY report of a "miracle" was mentioned in their presence, they always had a "knowing" and cynical expression on their faces, something very strange for those who were very close to "god". Sai Baba, of course knows that they all know, but also that they are circumstantially in his power, often by choice.
Examples of these top level "recruits" would be eminent jurists, top judges, high level govt. officials etc. Examples of the "real in bred top coterie" would be very close members of Sai Baba's family, acquaintances from Sai Baba's early days, and also those "devotees" who had been demonstrating their "loyalty" after knowing everything about Sai Baba. NO ONE at this level ever believes Sai Baba's divinity because they all know he is NOT god, which is why they have been appointed.
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The members of the second level , usually comprising national level presidents of Sai Baba organizations and state level presidents of large states in India, have their own set of authorities and responsibilities. They completely control state level funds and country level finances in the case of overseas organizations. There are several smaller level trusts in all the countries, and also all the states in India. These trusts are supposedly meant for chanelling money easily to the main Sai Baba central trust and they do that too, but the second level people are given ample opportunity to bag some money as a reward for "loyalty". All the accountants of the foreign counchils, and state level trusts are appointed by these second level "presidents", most of whom are businessmen in their own lives. Another common trick all these people do is to simply divert interest coming from the various trust investments into their own private funds and businesses, all with Sai Baba's "blessings". Also, they use the trust funds and huge investments as guarantees for raising loans for their businesses, and get favors from Financial institutions for putting the trust funds in those institutions.
Now, it is easy to understand why a Trust with known assets of around $ 15 billions has only ever contributed around Rs 1000 millions over its entire history. MONEY, very simply put, the same old weakness BIG MONEY, that is what makes the whole thing go around. Most people, even long time devotees, have absolutely NO IDEA of the kind of big money involved. The value of huge estates and properties donated by wealthy devotees, long dead, is simply too much, and hardly a few people will ever have an accurate estimate. I have talked to a few second level accountants' families and what I have quoted above is from that source.
These national presidents and trust members keep their junior level officials of the Sai Baba org on a tight leash. The reward for these smaller level officials, for their "loyalty" is an annual interview with Sai Baba arranged by the second level trust members. Most of these people do not know the entire Sai Baba story, some of them even believe he is "divine" and powerful and act in misguided beliefs. Others know exactly what is happening, and are just playing their parts to get "promoted" as they would in any business. These people arrange all the conferences, delegations, devotee groups, seva dals (volounteers), various activities of promoting the Sai Baba org like service activities, educational activities all over the world etc. But it is usually only people from the second layer who get plum responsibilities like positions in the University, hospital etc.
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The trust members are the ones with maximum access to Sai
Baba apart from the "special" students. Most of the college activities, welfare
activities and Ashram administration is carried on by members of the second layer. The
central trust members are also ruled by an iron hand and ALL checks would have to be
signed by Sai Baba and one more member of the central trust.
Practically all the contracts and Ashram related businesses are given to members of the
inner coterie and the second layer. The members of the second layer like presidents of
counchils overseas are ever on the lookout for "influential" and wealthy
devotees from their countries. Whenever anyone like that comes along, a complete history
of that person is gathered by the top official of that particular country and submitted to
some member of the inner coterie.
When the unsuspecting wealthy devotee arrives in Prashanti Nilayam for the first time, he/she is given an apartment by "Swami's Grace" and worked on by members of the inner coterie. All that the devotee will ever hear is stories of "Swami's miracles", "Swami's healing powers" etc, especially if that person has a health problem etc. And then Sai Baba will make that person wait for a reasonable time and "Grant" an interview, usually a short group meeting and promise another one soon. Sai Baba will tell them details of their personal lives from his "powers", actually what they would have told fellow group members or someone else. Later, they will get a private interview in which they will be given a "watch", "materialized ring" etc and asked to do sadhana (spiritual practice), ie not talk to anyone about anything, especially Indian devotees and people in the village.
The devotee will be encouraged by Sai Baba to read only spiritual teachings (Sai Baba stories) and helped by the odd coincidence, interpretation of coincidences, "materialization" and the "spiritual atmosphere" would become completely brainwashed into thinking that Sai Baba has specially chosen them. After more talks about "seva", "charity", "ceiling on desires", "material detachment" etc, they will feel "blessed" enough by Swami to be "allowed" to make a donation, will ask him, and he will say "I don't want your money, only your heart" and refuse to take any money.
They will leave after their first trip, fully convinced about Sai Baba's Divinity, and also his sincerity. The overseas counchil president will keep a careful eye on them and ensure that they really think that Sai Baba does not want money. The wealthy devotee will feel they are not "pure" enough at that stage to give the Lord, and will patiently wait their turn and accumulate the money. Later, after a couple of visits, and a lot of "pleading" with Swami to allow them to help his mission, they will be blessed with "purity" and "allowed to give without ego".
Result: One more fish bites the bait.
Conclusions
Dear everyone,
I had heard all the myths in my earlier years as a "devotee" of Sai Baba. In my
later years, I was a volunteer and had the opportunity to work in the Ashram intelligence
and security wing. This put me in contact with a lot of senior volunteers and Asram
residents who had been around for long. By talking to them about the specific
circumstances of the so called miracles I was able to find out what had exactly happened
in all of the above cases.
In this context I wish to inform everyone about a few things that the Ashram intelligence does. As stories of Sai Baba's miracles are really huge in numbers, there have been several instances where some people had tried to make money by "arranging" Sai Baba "miracles" and saying that by worshipping in this house or that, all problems will be solved and it is Sai Baba who has appointed this "agent" etc. This is rather common in the southern states of India.
The Ashram intelligence had developed a mechanism by which they investigate the source of these "miracles" and check out the motives of the persons behind them. This is also done to prevent Sai Baba from being associated with any "miracles" that may possibly be exposed as fraud at a later date, and give Sai Baba bad publicity. Of course, the original intention of the Ashram intelligence wing is to protect the "genuineness" of Sai Baba's "miracles", and prevent unscrupulous elements from "using" Sai Baba's name. Most of the people involved with intelligence and security at the Ashram really believe in Sai Baba's divinity and so they act like this. In fact this setup exists specifically on Sai Baba's orders, and I have personally investigated so many "miracles" myself.
But what is most important is, during these processes of
investigation, I have come across so many "genuine miracles", attested and
approved of by Sai Baba, that I know personally to be totally mistaken cases, and often
deliberately "arranged" by the inner coterie themselves.
Naturally, in these instances, I could not take it up to the higher authorities in the Sai
Baba org, as they themselves were guilty of arranging "miracles" and Sai Baba
himself is perfectly aware of all this. There are hundresds of "famous miracles"
that I had personally verified to be cases of MISTAKE by the people experiencing them, and
actively promoted by the Sai Baba org, and also several more "miracles" that are
a result of misinformation spread by over enthusiastic devotees, who do not even bother to
check facts properly.
The Sai Org's strategy is very clear on how to approach this.
1. If some outsider is trying to "use" Sai Baba's name to make money, they
simply ask the intelligence wing to invesigate, and confirm it and out out a notice in
"Sanathana Sarathi", or make general announcements.
This also gives the impression of other "miracles" approved by Sai Baba as being
genuine.
2. If it is case of mistaken "miracles" spread by over enthusiastic devotees,
then the Asharm intelligence reports it as such, and the Org officials "allow"
it to stay and circulate, thereby gaining "good publicity" for Sai Baba's
"miracles, while at the same time the Org can always dissociate from the stories if
they were seen to be mistaken cases by the devotees and public later.
3. In the case of a "miracle" that was arranged by the Org itself, and usually
this is done very carefully by trusted inner coterie members and targetted at wealthy
western devotees or someone working on a book, if the Intelligence wing happens to uncover
this, the instructions were to simply turn away and not talk to anyone about it. The
explanation always was "Sai Baba is God and we cannot understand all these things, so
ignore it".
I am sure that all of you would be able to relate to the manner in which the Sai Baba org
controls things, as you yourself may have seen examples of all the above things,
somewhere, sometime.
An example
Now, after the reading of these testimonies, which give us an idea of how things could work inside Sai Baba'circles, and which throw a much more "realistic" light on the so.called Sai Baba's "miracles", let's read a typical "miracle" story, which recalls those listed by "harisampath". The narrator is, needless to say, John Hislop, who in his life (he died in 1995) has vehiculated some of the biggest absurdities. As examples of these absurd stories, in this site, we have the story of the "true" crucifixed Christ and a dialogue about physical knowledges on the page "specific issues # 1". But here is this other story:
"Swami is at every place at all times. He is the Lord of the universe and of love. That means that he is here in this room now, without any doubt. He is omnipresent. I have a story to illustrate this: Mr and Mrs McDowell and their son Rodney live on a small farm in Kentucky. It was their custom to go into their house and meditate every afternoon. They had a dog which disappeared one day. A couple of days later, a new dog came and they adopted him. When it was time for meditation, Mr McDowell put the dog into their garage and locked both the doors, but when they came out of the house, there was the dog at the bottom of the steps, jumping full of joy. Rodney and Mrs McDowell went to greet the dog. But Mr McDowell, who was not the premier devotee of the family, started to walk down the steps, leaned against the balustrade, looked at the dog, and said under his breath, “It’s got to be Swami” Nobody paid attention to him.
I was in India some three years after that, and the McDowells came there for the first time. Swami called us all in for an interview together. The McDowells were sitting on chairs and right next to them were three Indian ladies sitting on the floor. After talking to the McDowells, Swami moved on to the three ladies and said something to them in a very low voice. Mrs. McDowell, observing this, wondered if he was talking about them so after the interview, she followed the Indian ladies and said to them, “Excuse me for asking, but was Swami talking about us to you?” “Oh yes” they replied. He said, "They think I am a dog.” This was three years after the event. What did it show? Of all the places in the world, Swami was there on that little insignificant farm in Kentucky where these two people and their dog lived! He is every place at all times."
(from a speech Hislop gave in 1994, quoted in "Sai Sarathi", New York, USA, Dec. 1994)
(A couple of remarks: first of all, Sai Baba doesn't confirm at all that McDowell's dog "was him", and anyway Hislop has accurately omitted to tell which were the final McDowell's reactions.)
Here it is. Remember what "harisampath" has told above... An unsignificant event (very probably the dog escaped from the garage because one of the doors was improperly closed), carries to unjustified, non-pertaining and absurd conclusions: “It’s got to be Swami”; and notice, they are pronounced right by the less devoted of the family... anybody would have first checked, e.g. to have correctly locked the garage! Do notice again the care for the detail: "Nobody paid attention to him". Now, if nobody paid attention to him, then how could Hislop have known that Mr. McDowell pronounced the statement "It’s got to be Swami"?
Moreover, obviously "just by chance", the McDowells go to the interview with Sai Baba just right with Hislop, who among the western devotees was surely at top places for relevance, and he was one of the top Sai Baba's propaganda men... very likely the McDowells told Hislop or some other devotee their "experience" with the dog, and the rest came by itself. Then Sai Baba set up the comedy with the happy and cheerful partecipation of the threee Indian women, to creat some drama effect.
There is another possibility: the McDowells themselves told Sai Baba about that event during the interview; he didn't give any weight to it, infact Hislop doesn't report anything meaningful that SB could have said to the McDowells, while he reports that SB talks about it with the Indian ladies, maybe even laughing at the americans.
Then notice Hislop's ending: "Of all the places in the world, Swami was there on that little insignificant farm in Kentucky where these two people and their dog lived! He is every place at all times", which is in sharp contradiction with something SB has told Hislop in another previous occasion (this other excerpt comes from the very same speech of the previous one):
"[Sai Baba's talking, the interview dates up to the sixties] “[...] For example, when you get into your car and you turn the key, then the car starts to run and it doesn’t need any more attention. You don’t have to do anything about it. It starts running and keeps on running. It is like that with Swami. Swami turns the key, so to speak, and the universe runs itself. So I have lots of time to be sitting here and talking to you.” I then asked, “Well Swami, are you then in different forms in different places to carry on the work?” “No, no, certainly not.” he said. [...] “Swami’s influence goes out like that. But there is only one Swami, no one else.”"
(from a speech Hislop gave in 1994, quoted in "Sai Sarathi", New York, USA, Dec. 1994)
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